I agree with those who say each skill should have it’s own tree.
The thing I hate about some skill progression trees, and D2 didn’t do this very well either, are wasted skill points. I hate spending points in a skill, passive or active,that I don’t need, in order to get to the one’s I do. Even if it’s just one point to unlock the next in the line, it feels like a waste, and inefficient.
Let me invest only in those skills I actually want for my build by not forcing me to take “bypass” skill nodes.
I didn’t find PoE’s skill tree to be all that complex in spite of it’s size - particularly with the search function which simplifies things.
The real issue with the PoE system is that the game is balanced around the 0.001% of meta players instead of everyone else, resulting in 99.99% of possible builds with that tree being useless. If you don’t follow the meta or trade with other players, if you try to play Solo-Self Found Mode, you are kinda screwed.
It’s a game that forces you to use social media and Wiki’s to play it, instead of what arpg’s are really about: killing monsters and taking their loot. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to watch build guides on Youtube. I don’t want to spend hours moving points around on a tree and tweaking my gear so it has exactly the perfect combination of stats, and I despise “bullet sponge” boss balancing - what I want to do is kill monsters and take their loot, which should be sufficient to carry me to the next difficulty or act.
PoE’s biggest problem is it’s horrible balance, and it’s why less than 10% of people who try it stick with it all the way to Maps. It has one of the worst retention rates for an arpg.
i think its hard with the old tree system
because it will always be about reaching the end of the branches for the most powerful skills and having mandatory picks inbetween
titan quest and later grim dawn already prevented this with letting you just “level” the tree without actually picking a skill that you dont want to use
but i think if you really want player choice and different builds, you need to move away from the vertical system, at least for active skills
fireball shouldnt just be the weak thing until you get meteor and so on
so i guess a tree should actually provide a variety of active skill right at the bottom, with branches going upwards from it, enhancing it as much as you want to invest into it
mostly like mr. llamas paint example
POE still has the OPs simulated choice… It’s a giant web but at the end of the day you are either meta or do no damage, have enough EHP or are dead.
There’s is no middle ground. Bigger doesn’t mean better.
And I feel today that the tree presented was overly artistic to distract from how simple and limited the actually tree was.
The abilities shown are ho-hum and the minors that influence said abilities are basically runes of D3 with investments vs unlocking through basic leveling.
Nothing different in outcome, just a different method to achieve the same as in D3 with a fancy interface. Dissappointed here.
The difference is there’s progression and there’s limits. You do not get everything. Not every build or character will have the same things. There’s a form of choice that is lacking in the leveling from D3.
It’s not something you can just shrug off.
In D3 you have Multishot with Arsenal. And that’s it per character. You can’t have Freeze Multishot with Arsenal or Lightning Cost Reduced Multishot with Arsenal. Or just Multishot with Arsenal.
The D4 tree gives that possibility based on a character, and not based on a Legendary that gives Multishot an extra rune.
I like 3 main branches, but the branches are for spells:
Fire (EXAMPLE)
Lightning (EXAMPLE)
Ice (EXAMPLE)
The 3 branches would have a few utility spells thrown in so you could put some points into fire even if you’re ice focused.
Each point put into a specific spell would make it stronger/unlock the next skill with more investment.
Then I would like having a separate section that would work with ANY non-utility spell in the game. These upgrades could be divided into tiers for progression and you can chain them together as you see fit. It would cost more points for a higher tiered upgrade and it would be cool if the player could make the choice of choosing to have more smaller upgrades, a mix and match or strictly focusing on fewer more drastic upgrades for different play styles.
The separate modifiers could look something like this:
Tier 1
10% Less Mana Cost
10% More Damage to enemies under 50% life
15 % chance to have the mana cost refunded when using skill
10 % chance to have gold drop on hit
Tier 2
Deal 20% more damage to enemies 5 meters away, but you are not able to cast if enemies are in front of you
Deal 15% more damage when damaging multiple enemies, but -5% less damage when damaging a single enemy
Deal +10% more damage when using different skills in succession but -5% less damage if you use the same skill twice
Tier 3
Gain 30% cast speed but lose 20% HP
Deal 40% increased damage after standing still for 1 second but lose 20% damage when moving
Etc
The UI would show what spells you’ve unlocked (and how many points each of them have) in 1 column and a laundry list of modifiers you’ve chosen in another column beside it.
I’m not really into the whole old school 3 separate trees thing. It just constrains design to fill/cull things that don’t fit into the categories.
It means you cant have dual elemental spells or spells outside those elements. It’s basically the designing equivalent of the cart before the horse.
Creative freedom is easier with an open design. The tree sort of allows that by not having a limit of 10 skills/passives per tree, and 3 trees per class as an example.
What if there’s a bunch of good lightning spells? The 3 tree system cuts those out completely by focusing on arcane, frost and fire.
The issue with giving a sorc lightning spells, poison spells, fire spells, summons, etc is that you have “bleed over” into another class. If you want the sorc to have lightning that’s fine, but give poison or fire to another class so it makes them unique. If every class can do similar things or cause similar effects then it makes each one less unique.
I never mentioned poison or summons so I’m not sure where you got that from. Unique spells are pretty easy even if they share elements. Confining an entire elemental category to one class is not going to work. There’s not enough elements for even 3 classes to have 3 each.
The poison or summons was just an example of a type of spell a class could have… Players who play Diablo like having a class that fulfills a fantasy of a popular trope or archetype. It sounds like what you want is a poe clone. Of course you can come up with 3 unique play styles for every class, D2 proves that.
Not all of them have to be an elemental damage type either… For example a tree for druid could focus on transformations rather than spells.
I don’t know what you’re even on about. I’m just talking about limiting a character to 3 trees with the Sorc as an example using her elements. You’re assuming a lot.
I don’t want PoE or strictly elemental based spells. Obviously a druid will have transformation type abilities or summons.
If a Sorc is able to freeze enemies and a Barb is able to freeze enemies (without some super powerful and rare legendary item) it makes each class less unique, even if for example the barbs freeze spell is a short ranged sword slash and the Sorc’s spell is an ice shard that gets shot from the sky.
Even though the spells are “unique” the mechanic of freezing the enemy is shared and that basically makes both a little less unquie. The less mechanics each of the classes share the better is what I’m pretty much trying to say. Each class should be able to do at least something the other classes can’t do to fulfill the fantasy the player is going for with their build. Players should be able to mix and match spells just as they are in D2. Your criticism of “3 trees means you’re locked in” doesn’t apply to D2 since rune words can give classes teleport for example which is really cool, but should be something you have to work for and not a default skill you’re given.
Each class should be unique, but here’s an example of a game that watered down entire classes… ok dude. Whatever. You win this random argument you’ve decided to come up with.
Your entire argument was that 3 trees are limiting.
My argument is that:
yes it is limiting
it should be limiting
3 playstyles or “trees” are the perfect # so you don’t have playstyles bleed over into other classes
classes would have more than 3 playstyles since they could mix and match between the trees (and the modifiers I gave as an example)
classes would have even more variety because of legendary items/rune words
because trees are only 1 piece of the puzzle anyway
Diablo fans that came in with D3 as their first and only title probably won’t understand why D2 is one of the best APRGs ever made and why the player base doesn’t want a PoE clone or D3 2.0.
Except D2 breaks limits and playstyles that bleed over into other classes (see Runewords). The Sorceress class fantasy was broken with everyone having access to Enigma. The Barbarian class fantasy was broken with everyone having access to Call to Arms.
You fanboy over a game that goes against what you argue.
The 3 tree system is an arbitrary limit not based on class fantasy, but on old school design. Are you telling me that the Sorceress magically lost the ability to use lightning spells because she has a frost, fire and arcane tree and not a lightning tree?
My argument doesn’t detract from class fantasy because it’s not about just adding things that other classes do, but about not limiting the class fantasy based on predetermined limits.
My argument doesn’t detract from mixing between trees because it’s a single tree with just as many skills but the skills are not limited solely based on the concept of 3 playstyles. There’s nothing lost at all.
It doesn’t detract from variety because of legendaries because of the same reason. So I have no idea what that point even applies to.
You’re arguing against something that doesn’t even apply to what I’m talking about.
You’re still bringing up D3 and PoE as if that’s what I’m even talking about.
You really don’t understand what I’m saying at all. You just need to win.
I already mentioned rune words.
“Your criticism of “3 trees means you’re locked in” doesn’t apply to D2 since rune words can give classes teleport for example which is really cool, but should be something you have to work for and not a default skill you’re given.”
I’ll take this win thanks =)
It bugs me a bit that you call it arcane all the time
It is actually lightning
She has fire, ice and lightning magic
And I get your point
Just change that little part pls