You may be right. If so I agree that this is communicated badly by the UI. I’m still not a fan of two separated character levels (normal level + paragon level). I would prefer to have just one character level and you would just earn paragon points from level X upwards instead of/additional to attribute and skill points.
Damn. Perhaps you’re right…
This could be for an ULTIMATE ability. I have seen the Rogue using what looks like an ultimate skill.
It is disappointing to see things getting 1 hit so easily. I hope that when you use a KEY the dungeon becomes a NIGHTMARE dungeon making it level 100.
I really hope Blizz can show us proper examples of combat, difficulty, mob movesets, boss movesets next update or soon. And a good example of using skill IE: dodging, movement, correct CD usage. To really showcase some skill based gameplay.
If D4 is all about player choice, we should have the choice to make the game challenge our level of skill by being able to increase the difficulty. It would be nice to see the full design of mobs when they actually survive being 1 hit.
Can you imagine 8 Necromancers running around with 30 mobs each!?
8 x 30 = 240 mobs on screen!
Also pvp would be awful against 30 mobs especially when there’s more than 1 Necromancer walking around.
I really hope D4 manages to separate itself from the idea that it’s an offline experience. It’s not and hasn’t been for many years now. Sure Diablo may always be a game you can solo, but world bosses are in now and they can’t be soloed. People want a more social experience with D4 and I’m happy about this. Classes will have to be balanced for online play and 30 summons is asking too much imo. I think 30 mobs would make solo play too easy also. What would you even have to do if you had 30 summons walking around? You got a decent gang to summon and do your bidding, I think an ARMY is asking a little too much.
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I’m a solo player and would like to have an army. You could argue that 30 summons are too much but I think multiplayer should not limit solo play.
I also think you should be able to try world bosses solo. Of course this should be exceptionally hard but if the game is about player choice let me choose to play single player. Maybe I will never be able to kill a world boss solo but let me choose to try.
Most importantly let me choose with whom I want to share the Shared World of D4. Options should be “no one”, “only with friends”, “with anyone”.
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Diablo as a game is first, and foremost, a single player game. It is SECONDARILY a co-op game. On a tertiary level, it is a PvP game.
In no way should PvP balance compromise the Single Player experience. That would be an absurd misprioritization of what this franchise is. It’s a character RPG. NOT an Esport.
Also, we ALREADY had Witch Doctors running around with around 30 minions. We’ve already seen that pulled off. They weren’t dominating the leaderboards. They weren’t crashing Co-Op parties.
Your argument that high-minion counts would be too easy or not feasible for groups doesn’t hold water because it’s ALREADY been done.
The key is just balancing it right or designing it correctly to make it interesting. Commanding the targets of your Skeletons, leaping your Golem into certain areas, having different minion abilities that you’re triggering or timing…as well as keeping yourself safe…there’s definitely potential to make it an active and engaging experience.
Regardless of how it’s done, for my character RPG, I want to enjoy the fantasy of being a Commander of the Dead…not a Wizard who has a few buffing minions.
Blizzard has said they want this to be about player choice. I’m voicing my choice now that I want a Legion of Skeletons/Revives/Golems/etc.
If you don’t want that to be your playstyle, fine. You don’t have to. But I imagine you’d be equally annoyed if Blizzard said you can’t make a Whirlwind Barb or an Ice Wizard because it was ‘too many particle effects for PvP’ or any other similar nonsense.
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30 summons arent necessarily too much imo. Just a matter making each summon type have different jobs to perform. Being able to control which enemies each summon type is attacking, or tanking etc. can also be nice.
Only thing that should matter in MP is that other players shouldnt have to see your 30 summons 
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Personally I feel like Diablo will never grow and become something truly great. A truly innovative experience including all the stuff people love from modern games. Unless it decides to respectfully ignore the loud vocal minority of its old school fanbase that doesn’t want the game to change in what are extremely meaningful ways to a wider, newer and larger player base. I personally don’t really have fun in single player games much anymore. They have to be really, really good.
Many people have expressed their enjoyment of a more social ARPG experience after playing Immoral and Lost Ark.
I don’t think pvp, pve screen being filled by necro mobs, never being able to move or attack anything because there are literally 30 friendly npcs on my screen x however many necros are in my party, is a good way of balancing the game. D4 is not a single player game. It has single player in it, but is first and foremost, for a modern gaming audience, a social, online experience.
It’s completely unviable for an enjoyable experience for anyone but yourself. PVP, group pve and world bosses would be ruined by screen filling and op necro armies. And it’s for 1 mechanic on 1 class.
No, Diablo 4 should not be balanced or geared towards a single player experience.
Other (friendly, of course) players just shouldnt see those necros (or at least 90% transparent or something) and they should not be able to physically blot you.
Not only. But imo, that should be the first focus. Then scale up the difficulty from there.
Opposite for me. Single player games is where most of the good games are. It is rare to find a good multiplayer game imo.
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I disagree with this argument. Diablo has been both single and multiplayer since D2. This is not at all preventing innovation. And you don’t have to play single player if you like multiplayer more.
Absolutely not. D4 is both and as Rod F. said, it is (should be) about player choice.
It absolutely should be balanced for both singleplayer and multiplayer.
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Diablo has grown tremendously since its inception. Unless you’re arguing that D1, D2, and D3 were essentially the same game?
New features, modes, and multiplayer capabilities have been added with each iteration. D4 looks to be adding more changes and innovations. I honestly like many of the co-op features and have enjoyed them with friends. I definitely play those things. But MOST of my hours are solo-grinding. I think that’s true for the vast majority of the fanbase.
These sequels, at the end of the day, are an innovation and an iteration on a DIABLO Game. It is NOT Lost Ark. It is it’s own game with it’s own appeal. A largely single player appeal.
Nobody is arguing against Diablo being innovative. But if you truly don’t enjoy single player games, and want Diablo to be a primarily multi-player experience, my honest suggestion would be to go play something else. Paths of Exile might be more to your taste.
This isn’t an ‘old game’ vs ‘new game’ point. There are plenty of new single player games out there. And plenty of new multiplayer games out there. Diablo is a bit of a hybrid, but a hybrid leaning into the single player side of things.
I’m sorry if that bothers you, but it just it what it is. Fundamentally changing what Diablo is, just makes it “not Diablo” anymore, and transforms it into something else. If you’re more interested in that “something else” I suggest you go play that; whatever it happens to be.
Don’t wander around the Diablo, Skyrim, Assassin’s Creed, Witcher, etc. communities and tell them to transform their games into “multiplayer-first” experiences. Just go play your multiplayer-first games.
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I don’t see this as a good argument for a hybrid game to allow Necro’s to run around with 30 minions each. I’m against any class being able to have more than what we saw in current footage. I also want to play D4 solo a lot I have become jaded to playing games in groups. Especially something competitive which is a huge part of why I want to play D4. I want to play solo but I also want to pvp and compete with other players in pve and show off my build and have a social experience etc. So I think classes should all be balanced against each other. But also people have been complaining about necro armies for years the only person who enjoys having that many friendly npcs on screen is the person playing the Necro lol. I’m happy with what I saw from the current footage. You get a decent amount of summons without pi**ing everyone else off lol.
Your Necro mob point is a hyperbolic strawman at best.
Have you played Diablo 3?
You can already bring 30 minions per character into Co-Op Bounties and Rifts.
The mobs don’t get in your way. They don’t clutter your screen. They are ghosted out and transparent, where they are barely visible and your character passes through them like air. The main highlights on your screen are still your enemies and your own character. Any minions are an easily ignorable afterthought.
The minion style also isn’t ‘too easy’. They aren’t the ‘best build’ or the ‘easiest build’ or anything else like that. You won’t find any Greater Rift leaderboard topped by a ‘max minion’ Witch Doctor. You also won’t find many groups who want ‘max minions’ in their party if they’re looking for statistical min-maxing.
The ‘too easy’ builds have long been stuff where the single character finds a way to get permanent uptime on its “Ultimate Form”. This is a separate design flaw altogether imo which has already been debated around these parts, but it’s besides the point.
Minions do NOT dominate the scene in Diablo 3 in terms of power nor do they hinder Co-Op play for allies. There is no reason to suspect that they would all of a sudden do these things in Diablo IV.
They are simply a thematic, atmospheric playstyle choice that was stripped away from the Necromancer in Diablo 3 and given to the Witch Doctor instead. I would like it to be returned to the Necromancer where it belongs.
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I think having Necro minions running around as ghosts looks really ugly. Really don’t want that in the game either. It’s far too beautiful of a game to compromise it just for Necro minions. I want to see everything as it is.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that having allied minions ruins your experience. Then ALSO say you don’t want anything done to reduce the visual prominence of your allied minions.
The only solution to your double standard would be removing minions from the game entirely.
It honestly is just coming across like you have an axe to grind against summoner-based play. If it’s not your cup of tea, fine.
But for myself and many others, it is a cornerstone playstyle in fantasy and sci-fi RPG’s in general, from Paths of Exile, to EVE, to many others…including ofc, Diablo.
If I’m not telling you that your playstyle of choice should be removed from the game, you really shouldn’t be telling others the same thing.
Like, what if, hypothetically “I didn’t like the way your Rogue’s ‘Rain of Arrows’ looks on my screen”? That wouldn’t be any sort of basis for removing ‘Rain of Arrows’ for the game.
You need to be more understanding, and less self-centered in your preferences. You are of course, allowed to have your own playstyle preferences. But not at the expense of excluding other individual’s playstyle preferences from the game.
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I’m not saying your playstyle of choice should be removed from the game. I’m simply saying that the current footage we see of Necro summons looks like the devs are making correct choices to me, and giving any one class too much of what they want, that then ruins other classes enjoyment of the game is a mistake. Tons of Necro npcs on screen is ugly and annoying and so are ghost npcs.
You are saying my playstyle of choice should be removed from the game. Literally solely on the basis that you personally find it ‘visually ugly’. You are outright saying you don’t want to see any more minions than the 8 or so that have been demo’d.
An 8 minion, small gang, buff group is not my playstyle. Nor do I imagine it being the preferred playstyle of many Summon-mancers. Solo/Curse/Corpse Mancers are ofc their own style. But when it comes to Summon-mancers specifically, a horde/legion/army doing actual damage is my preferred playstyle and the preferred playstyle of many other Summon-mancers.
And you’re saying I shouldn’t have that because you find it ugly. That’s arbitrary, selfish, and a critique that could be equally levied at any spell or ability for any class. Like it would be equally cheap and easy for me to call anything else I didn’t play ‘ugly’ and therefore, disposable.
Of course. Having many summons doesn’t mean it should be overpowered.
It shouldn’t really bother anyone else that the necro has a bunch of summons if they cant see them (should be a toggable setting of course)
I really hope we can toggle off other players spell effects, not only their minions. To avoid the absurd spell explosions all over the screen that plagues D3.
Indeed.
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At this rate I should be demanding to toggle off Necro’s from ever matchmaking with me in open world or pvp. I’d like to toggle off their entire existence please if every time I see one they bring 30 minions with them. I don’t think we’ve seen a single piece of footage with 30 anything on the screen let alone JUST a Necro army. It’s ridiculous to ask for this much in a hybrid experience. 4 other classes + more on the way do not want their screens filled with Necro mobs or translucent Necro mobs. If that’s been done so many times then go back and play those games if you’re going to tell me I shouldn’t play D4. D4 is trying to be NEW and DIFFERENT not a rehash of bad game mechanics that become OP and ugly.
Noppe. If you don’t like it, than YOU go play a differnt game.
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You want to delete an entire character class from the game because some players of that class like Summon-centric builds?
I don’t even know what to say to that, other than I truly hope your attitude is not the kind the developers take serious feedback from.
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.
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Blizzard: Please don’t cater to this mindset. A true Summoner Necromancer would be greatly appreciated.
If minions/effects appearing on allied screens is somehow an actual issue or obstacle, then I would prefer the approach suggested by Shadout, where he talked about reducing or eliminating how much of any/all ally spells or abilities you see in order to reduce screen clutter.
^That solution would be exponentially preferred over removing entire character classes from the game or eliminating thematic and popular playstyle options from particular classes.
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You don’t see the irony in my statement? The fact you are asking Blizzard to not take me seriously when I was simply reflecting the same behaviour and attitude you were having towards me only shows that you think your own behaviour should not be taken seriously.
Talking about turning effects off and making Necro mobs translucent?
The effects look amazing, even during the world boss everything was very readable. I would very much like to have everything turned on. You suggest I’m making an underhanded argument and twist my words and meaning. When you’re the one suggesting the effects should be toggled off rather than made to look beautiful and readable is a much more selfish attitude.
The game is a hybrid. Millions upon millions of people will be playing socially, co-op, pvp and would like a balanced beautiful looking game which currently that’s how it’s looking. Tons of translucent Necro mobs does not lend itself to anything BUT a solo experience.
I would love to carry on playing Diablo 2. Really the only thing stopping me is the MULTIPLAYER is bad and a lack of interesting content. IE: having to farm the same areas over and over.
The multiplayer is the most important thing to get right, innovate and improve upon. Not the single player. The only thing that’s truly important about single player is making sure most of the content can be soloed. That doesn’t necessarily mean it should be soloable with every build and not be easier to complete with some help! D2 people got boosted ALL THE TIME. Soloing the game was VERY HARD and required specific builds or a LOT of farming. MOST builds could not solo the game without getting stuck at some point.
Many single player ARPGs have been made. It’s time to make something that’s ALSO fun to play multiplayer as well as single player.
It’s multiplayer games that the wider gaming audience is after.
The most popular games by far are multiplayer games. Whether they are pve or pvp is neither here nor there (most are pvp). People want to play multiplayer games and be social with each other.
It should be balanced both so people can complete the game on single player but also so that classes are balanced both in pve and pvp when people play TOGETHER. And not have to compromise on aesthetics and performance for the sake of one class that can have the same feeling, dmg and balance using less mobs that don’t need to be made translucent spoiling the entire look of the game.