Diablo 4 Power Progression your oppinion

General Discussion
1

I’ve been stoning some Power Progression Youtube vids, from differing youtubers, and i was wondering how stong could a lvl 40 be compared to lvl 1. and how stong should a lvl 40 with 100% BiS items be Compared to a lvl 40 average…

i tried to make a like small excel. with a 7% power increase/lvl. in both item and char ( skill/stats ) that gave like a lvl 40 with average lvl 40 item would be 200 times stonger then a lvl 1…

Then i played with charm bag and BiS item multiplier.

  • Charm low 1,05 boost high GG 1,25 Boost to char ( skill / Stats )

  • BiS items Going from 80% BiS avegare giving a 1,3 boost to a 100% BiS Giving a 2,5 multiplier to items

The Code:
Power vs lvl 1 = ((100 * 1,07^( Char Lvl - 1) * Charm multiplier)/100)*((100 * 1,07^(Item Lvl - 1) * BiS multiplier )/100)

This would make a player with GG charm bag 1,25 + 100% BiS 2,5 about 600 times stronger then lvl 1 or 3 times Stronger then lvl 40 average

this type of scaling is not balanced doesn’t consider skills or anything.

Im bringing this up because i didn’t like the major gap in Dmg/life… Like in D3 going from lvl 1 crit 20 dmg from time to time to 20.000.000 crit all the time. on every player lvl 70

so the question…
Scaling 1 - 40 ( or what ever lvl the max is)
And Scaling 40 to GG 40…
where do you stand.
100x
1000x
100000x
10000000x
xD

2

Well, your maths are too much for me but I would generally say, keep it down and use flat numbers.
Level 1: 1-3 damage
Level 40, everything maxed: 850-1000 damage
Maybe?
There needs to be a bit of space for different weapons to differ
Like daggers be fast but weak and hammers be slow but much flat damage
And skill damage I don’t know man
Something around those numbers
No millions

3 Likes
3

i was afraid it was xD

So
lvl 1: 2 Dps
Lvl 40 900 Dps

what about life :smiley:

same increase here

lvl 1: 50 Effective life with 0 Resist and 0 damge reduction (armor).
Lvl 40 22.500 Effective life with 80% Resist and 80% damge reduction (armor).

22.500 - 80% = 4500 Hitpoints…

When you say every thing maxed do you mean all BiS items. or what should differentiate the top from average… something like 2 - 3 times better or…

2 Likes
4

Yea I mean bis items and all alternative progressing systems included

1 Like
5

Something along the lines of you can take are level based say 4-5 big hits from Elites, 2 from Bosses even if the first hit is a near death hit, no one likes getting one shot, but if you pick to venture in to a harder area that’s on you.
World Bosses are ok to one shot you as they are telegraphing attacks and you should know better.
So in short if you stay in your leveled area you don’t get one shoted, some of us don’t have the reflexes we did 20+ years ago.
In saying that If you stay under geared that will still let you get one shoted, play smart when RND lets you.

1 Like
6

A 3x difference in power between undergeared and BiS gears is actually quite huge. If you consider balance to be 50% damage and toughness from skills and talents, the other 50% from items, then even a no gear lvl 40 should have everything halved. Going on with the logic, an undergeared char should only have a 20-40% smaller damage and toughness than the ones with BiS gears. Of course, we don’t know exaclt if 50:50 for skills and items is considered balanced.

1 Like
7

DON’T MAKE MULTIPLIERS

That’s the Rule #1 and D3’s biggest mistake… Make it LINEAR, more specifically reverse Square or Fibonacci progression… Everything else should be addressed (more or less) by itemization to gain “extra needed bits” of power here & there

Here’s an example of both those progressions I’ve talked about:

Square:

level 1 - char damage = 2-4 (basic without weapons equipped)
level 4 - char damage = 3-6
level 9 - char damage = 4-8
level 16 - char damage = 6-12
level 25 - char damage = 8-16
level 36 - char damage = 12-24

Fib:

level 1 - char damage = 1-2
level 2 - char damage = 2-3
level 3 - char damage = 3-5
level 5 - char damage = 5-8
level 8 - char damage = 8-13
level 13 - char damage = 13-21
level 21 - char damage = 21-34
level 34 - char damage = 34-55

THAT is how you make a NATURAL power progression… DON’T, just don’t rely on Multipliers ffs… I just posted a simple “rule”, there are other Mathematical formulas to achieve the progression in a right way… Pretty sure D2 used something similar like this

Could be even done differently - keep the rate steady but more “bumpy” at milestones as you go on, something like this:
Levels 1-4 gain 1 basic damage
levels 5-11 gain 3 basic damage every 2 levels
levels 12-20 gain 5 basic damage every 3 levels
levels 21-33 gain 7 basic damage every 4 levels
levels 34-39 gain 9 basic damage every 5 levels (i.e. once at lvl39)
level 40 = gain 10 basic damage

Things like that… Just DON’T, ffs DON’T use Multipliers… They aren’t meant for natural/basic progression of a character, those are intended explicitly i.e. EXCLUSIVELY for Masteries

5 Likes
8

And yes - to answer your question, the answer is somewhere between 7 and 400 times stronger (depending on a particular stat), meaning between Sqrt(lvl diff) and lvl*log10(lvl) diff

There are “acceptable palettes” of progression, those are defined best by certain mathematical functions… First you should define the acceptable mins/maxxes of difference (like I did for ex. min requirement power diff of a certain stat be 7 times stronger than lvl1, and max be 400), and THEN you kind proceed “tailor” every stat’s formula (on it’s own separately) to fit as natural as possible between those 2 “limitation progression” possibilities

There are other types as well, for ex… 1.1^(40-lvl^2) [used square here cause it’s a nice 1-6 deffinition when 40 is the max lvl limit, if the lvl limit goes up to 50 then have to change the formula slightly :)]

Regardless, you GET the idea, you don’t, just DON’T use multipliers, instead you think of functions of progressions that go assymptotically toward a certain acceptable (i.e. not too significant but not unsignificant at it’s minimum either) limit/s :slight_smile:

9

Nice ideas :smiley: ill think them in next time im getting nerdi xD
but my formular is not meant as a multiplier for damage Boost :smiley: more like a way to compare your char overall power. like attack speed wont make your damage pr hit go up but its still is a messeurement for overall power :smiley:

Like Imho i think the numbers should be kept low…

Like in my senario with 7% increase in char streng pr lvl from (skills, talents, stats,) and 7% increase in Item streng from ( +dmg +atk speed + cast speed +resist +regen ect ect)
lvl 40 was 200 times stonger the lvl 1

if lvl 1 was
DPS = 2
Thoughens = 50 with 0 armor 0 resist

then 40 would be
DPS = 200
Thoughens = 5000 ( if armor and Resist was 70% Hitpoints 1500 total. )

this is over simplified :smiley: :smiley:

10

You will notice zero progression on levelup then. Everything feels just the same.

Break that down to gear slots and you will never notice a difference when you replace a crap item with a BIS item. Not to mention, replacing a crap item with an ok item, just the same.

If everything is equally useless the whole loot is dead on arrival. You will never even stoop to pick anything up, why should you? Why play to progress? Why even assign skill points (no difference either)?

11

I didn’t take builds/stats into consideration, all I talked about is “natural” progression without any investment in “strength” points… And yes, it’s ENOUGH, mainly because as time/levels progress onward the higher the DPS percentage goes less from the character and more from the build

12

Agree that 50:50 is too harsh, maybe we can split into 70:30 or even 80:20, where 70-80% damage are from gears. But at least we all agree that systems like D3 shouldn’t be repeated. The split is like 99:1.

13

The only thing that counts is overall progression. What you can do. Not what you could do running a naked char. If that was your whole point it is meaningless. Just make zero natural progression and base everything on gear, and you can equip higher gear on higher level.

Ever heard of D3 character progression? Aka Paragon? It’s definitely not 99:1.

14

You down with opp ?
:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

15

Yes Mommy :stuck_out_tongue: :joy_cat:

16

The reason i put it on like a 50-50 to begin with was if they where using +% weapon damage like in D2 and D3 whey would count alot towards your DPS or do you think a flat dmg adder on skills are better
Like
bash : Deals weapon damage +X * Skill level damage.

Also when you get BiS items Regardless of your lvl the differens Would be More 25/75 Char/Item power :smiley:

I agree completely :smiley: where do you stand on how strong You char could be when it come to damage out put and overall health :smiley:

17

May be not 99:1, but rather 99.99999 : 0.00001. Each items give you average 700 main stat, and caldesann at 150 give you another 750 stat, let’s take it 1400 total for the lower end. Amulet and rings rarely rolls main stat but elemental damage or other supporting stats, so let’s take it away. Now we have 10 items left with main stat. That’s 14000k stat in total from items.

Assume you have 4000 paragon at the end of season, which is mostly achieved by botting anyway, not real playing, you will then have (4000-650)*5 = 16750 main stat. Now, the initial ratio between items and paragon is 40:60. Remeber this.

But you fail to see that items, besides main stat, add overall damage value through set bonus and others bonus added directly to a skill you use. Let’s take WW barb for example. Rend without items last only 5s. 2p bonus increases it to 15s, and 500% damage. That is 18 times. 4p bonus triple Rend damage, 3 times. 6p bonus increases Rend damage by 10000%, which is 100 times. In general, the set alone gives you 18x3x100 = 5400 times.

Next, we have Ambo’s Pride that crumbles all Rend damage from 15s to 1s, this is 15 times increase in damage. Lamentation stacks Rend 2 times, and deals 150%, that is 5 times. Istvan set gives you 30% damage, 1.3 times. CoE gives you 50% average. Then there can be another 40% from your chosen elemental damage from amulet and bracer. In total, we have 15x5x1.3x1.5x1.4 = 204 times.

Your equipped gem too. 60% from bane of trapped, 80% from taeguk, 16-80% from zei stone, make it 50% then. So from this source we have 1.6x1.8x1.5 = 4.32 times, wanna scale down to 4 for you?

In general, your items give you another 5400x204x4 = 4406400 times the damage. Let’s round down to 4.4 million times for the sake of simplicity.

Meanwhile, from skills and passive, you have 50% damage from Wrath of the berserker, 25% for rampage, 25% for berserker rage, 20% from brawler, 40% from ruthless. How much is that? 1.5x1.25x1.25x1.2x1.4 = almost 4 times, so let’s make it 4.

Original ratio is 40 from items, 60 from paragon. Now the 40 becomes 40x4.4 million = 176 million, meanwhile the 60 becomes 60x4 = 240.

176 million : 240, or 730 thousand : 1, with only 1 coming from paragon. And this doesn’t even includes bonus from CHC, CHD, attack speed, area damage, raw damage, majority of which coming from items, little coming from paragon.

Don’t you do your math?

1 Like
18

You are aware that the bonuses apply multiplicative and not additive ?

19

And which part of my math do you see additions?

20

The A:B part which makes sense for additions but not for multiplications.
Take 2 apples, add 5 oranges, you have a 2:5 apple/orange ratio.

And you make it sound as if paragon were totally irrelevant which it isn’t.