Well, we’ve also deviated some from my trigger point of “Do the Dance or Die” mechanics not being good. I can’t entirely fault raiders for not knowing an endgame outside of that bubble, but such is why I’ve tried to generally emphasize it’s a false choice.
You have to lock something behind the most difficult content in the game. That’s what drives many to seek completing it.
For example, regarding games with cosmetics, locking some of these behind such content won’t do bad to anyone, because actually everyone can see it in-game (owning it or not).
Also, I am thinking about some category of KotH items that could be shared between the most elite players (or clan members if we make these more available) with these changing possession depending on player’s results. This further can stimulate the competition and player engagement with players aiming to posses the KotH items.
They are. There are entire games built around this kind of concept, like Undertale, and they’re highly praised.
If you want to ignore the presence of things like levels, HP, equipment, heals, then sure, UT has some one-shots. On the other hand, failures are also on the individual and not a result of others screwing up.
What these group DtDoD scenarios lead to is something like someone wanting the Shadowbringer EX mounts, so they start setting up PUGs in the party finder. Other people who want them join up. One finally drops in 5 or 6 kills, but they don’t win the roll. It happens? Okay. Repeat for another dozen kills and only 2 more drop, where again that person doesn’t get it. Suddenly the people that got theirs are tired or have to go because it’s been 2 hours, dropping the party to 5/8. More time is lost replenishing members if you can in a timely manner. Then even if the group gets going again and can know the respective fight’s mechanics, there’s nothing guaranteeing the same scenario won’t keep happening. The 99 totem trade may exist as a safety net, but expecting someone to clear a difficult and not short fight 99 times for one mount tends to feel gatekeep-y in its own way. And the argument could be made that it’s just a cosmetic, so that level of reach is all the more cruel. But this is also one of those times where people can and do walk away from the game angry despite doing nothing wrong.
I know people love to argue that caste systems, or haves and have nots are required to somehow magically these games work, but the problem consistently remains a lack of exposure to alternatives to teach otherwise. Being a “have not” needs to be a choice within the individual’s control and not a combination of factors that are not like the above scenario, or not playing at peak times, or not finding a guild they mesh with, etc… This isn’t to be confused with people wanting hand outs, as is commonly strawmanned, either.
Every time I see, “But the hard stuff has to have carrots to tempt people to do it!” I see “People don’t actually want to do the hard stuff, but have to because it’s the only way to get the carrot!” There’s an abject denial that what they want is niche, yet they also try to pervert that into a requirement for alternative progression not existing. That’s not a recipe to keep playing. It’s a recipe to get people to quit. And plenty of people have rightfully sworn off MMOs because they don’t want others dictating the value of their time, not because there was content they didn’t like.
You complain deviating from the subject of the design of raid encounter mechanics and proceed to write 3 paragraphs deviating from that subject.
I don’t think there’s much of an argument to be had with you. I will just default to
L + ratio + skill issue + cry about it + tell reddit + I’m faster and stronger than you
and call it a day, because as you experienced yourself in the XIV forums, a forum discussion about things like this is a fruitless exercise that will result in nothing and honestly that’s probably what you want me to say anyway so you can group me in with the elitist hardcores and feel validated. I think there’s better ways to improve games than this type of time waste anyway.
You can say that, but raids dont have to be the hardest content.
You could have both solo, small group, and raid content, at the same difficulty levels, with the same rewards. Just different paths for players to focus on.
Too many MMOs fall into the raid trap there.
To be fair, WoW has added the small group progression with Mythics. Not sure to which degree it rewards the same as raids these days, but at least it doesnt reward set items afaik. So it is still not there.
If someone dont actually want to play the game in any way (which definitely should be more than raids), it seems logical you also don’t progress in the game.
As for ‘Do the Dance or Die’, it gets boring if all raid bosses are like that. But luckily they are not. Personally not a fan of the raid design in FF14 (what I have tried of it), as they do seem to focus heavily on that design, basically just moving around in the glowing patterns on the ground. But I assume there is more to it than that, for at least some of the bosses.
The more options the better.
Lock different stuff behind any of these and allow for co-oping with AI. That way a solo player not wanting to join groups with real players can do these together with AI.
If rewards don’t deliver power that could be used at other places in the game that is fine.
It should specifically deliver power that can be used in other parts of the game. If you gear up through solo content, you should be able to get the same gear as in raids, and allowing you to gear up for those raids, by doing the solo content. Allowing for more progression paths and “shifting branch” along the way, without having to start all over if you want to move from solo to raiding, or from raiding to solo content.
Raiding and solo content is not the same. Allowing players to solo raids is not a substitute for actual solo content.
Nothing wrong with allowing soloing raids in a story mode however, nor anything wrong with allowing soloing old raids, WoW style. As long as it is not used as an excuse for a lack of solo content in the MMO
(and specifically talking MMOs here; Diablo 4 should not have such a thing as solo or raid content, everything should be doable solo (without non-build NPCs helping) and by groups)
The problem with this is many players that can’t do the challenge won’t be happy. The power from hardest content rewards should be very specific.
Raiding together with AI instead of real players can be a fun option.
Doesn’t make sense, if you can’t do the solo content, and also can’t do the raiding, then it doesn’t matter whether you can take the rewards from solo to raiding, since you aren’t doing either anyway.
It just helps people who want to do multiple activities.
Not to mention, designing X items is easier/faster than designing 3X items, so having the same rewards for all 3 lanes offers effificiency.
Maybe, but it can’t replace solo content.
Well, there’s all sorts of crazy mechanics. There’s a boss on an alliance raid (not even a savage or anything) where you need to do math. Literally. Calculate if a number assigned to you is a prime or not. (And it’s a mechanic that really makes sense in the context of the raid and what it is meant to reference)
You don’t wipe for messing up the math though, you just don’t get a buff.
FF14 has something like that for the new (normal difficulty) trials (which are pretty much 1-boss raids). The NPC party does the mechanics and all that, but it’s a little cheated to overcome it’s limitations (for example, it doesn’t get the vulnerability debuff you get from messing up a mechanic). There’s also story specific moments where the AI misses a mechanic on purpose, that kind of stuff. It’s an interesting system, although not perfect and the AI has some dumb moments for sure. I’ve wiped because of Alphinaud BOT one or two times running dungeons with that system.
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Generally a good way to handle things. Not that wipes for mistakes are bad, but just to vary it a bit. Wiping slowly, because not enough got the dmg buff to kill the boss fast enough etc., instead of wiping instantly because everyone takes a million dmg.
From my experience, those raids are usually designed to punish mechanics according to their importance and also how obvious they are. Got hit by an AoE? You take a lot of damage, but might be able to heal through (or just outright ignore it if you’re a tank). Forgot to run to the obvious big shield before a huge blast hits the whole arena? Yeah, you should die on that one. I’ve never been in a raid where every mistake was an instant wipe, that would be literally impossible to beat.
Just to be fair, there ARE some BS mechanics in FF14 raids, especially older ones. In the crystal tower, which is an ARR alliance raid (an obligatory one btw) there’s a boss called Amon that makes destructible ice blocks. You’re not supposed to break them, because if you break the ice blocks you won’t be able to hide behind them when an alliance-wide instant-wipe comes. But a player who just wants to troll can attack the blocks and wipe their own team for lulz. Can’t defend that one to be honest.
It seems you talk about something else here. If you have a dungeon X that 1% of players can complete its power rewards should not go to other areas.
Watched some of the Lost Ark video posted earlier, and it kinda sounded like “get hit by mechanism, and you die”, repeated a bunch of times.
But also just nice when the non-wipe isn’t merely taking some dmg. Non-wipe dmg only pressures the healers to play better to overcome the failure.
If the penalty of failing is missing a DPS buff, then DPSers are the ones that need to step up to overcome the failure.
I dont mind such mechanisms. As long as it isn’t meant to be done in random groups, trolls wont be around to troll for long.
In random groups it is different of course. But then I also dont think raid content for random groups makes a whole lot of sense in general. Other than for people who enjoy self-inflicted pain I guess.
I certainly might not understand what you are saying here, but 1) the item rewards gained in that dungeon should of course be usable outside of that dungeon, anything else would be really weird design, and 2) you should be able to get the same* rewards from other similarly difficult content, and then be able to take those rewards and use them in dungeon X too. Anything else would be immense gate-keeping and preventing people from catching up.
*same or similar, like, you can have different item skins to signify their different sources, but the in terms of power, they should be the same.
This then creates the problem with unhappy players due to rewards from too hard to complete content.
For example, reward in D3 for top 50 LB players that boosts your overall Paragon level with 1k will be perceived as annoying by many.
Don’t make it too hard? Seems simple enough.
Making it possible to get similar rewards from other progression paths exactly mean they can get those rewards without doing that specific dungeon. Makes no sense that would make the people you describe unhappy. Quite the opposite would presumably happen.
Probably because it would be really silly. And also not relevant for what is being discussed, since top 50 leaderboard is limited by amount (max 50 players by its very definition) whereas doing content in the game is not limited by such.
Getting rewarded for doing lvl 70 content, vs. doing lvl 10 content, on the other hand? Seems reasonable. Cant really have progression otherwise.
Difficulty scaling of content up to impossible (endless GR for example) with respective rewards is fun as long as these aren’t usable elsewhere.
No.
Terrible game design 101.
That’s a design for the competitive players allowing for purely skill based rewards, for example specific unique items available only for the very few players reaching a respective tier in some dungeon. This item then serves for new meta among those players leading to the next item and so on.
I can see such thing being liked by dedicated players too.