I like what you said about resistances but I think it’s a joke to argue that D2 characters are all the same. Cause there is almost guaranteed to be variance whereas in D3 they might be EXACTLY the same except slight difference in gear upgrades.
Just because D3 did an absolutely horrible job with itemization, doesn’t mean D2 did things right.
All D2 builds are not the same, but they tend to have the same one hit wonders.
At least it feels like most people consider the synergies bad. Seems like it was meant as a counter to spreading your skills to get all the one hit wonders, but yeah, only made things worse, homogenizing even more.
Lol. If anything D3’s gameplay is praised.
No, I’m saying that console controllers these days have more than 6 buttons and even the example in D2 that people love to bring up of the Necromancer still isn’t really that many keybinds.
People keep going on about how we’re being limited because of consoles like modern console controllers don’t have 12+ buttons on them which is more than sufficient even for Diablo 2.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that because I criticized Diablo 2 that means I think they should do exactly what they did in Diablo 3. Diablo 3 has its own problems that stem from things that aren’t the 6 skill limit.
Diablo 3 had problems in that they use mainstat as well as until recently builds were 100% reliant on sets and what insane bonuses they got. This would have led to problems even if they didn’t have the skill limit.
People in D3 still use different gear and skills. There’s of course the “recommended” optimal builds, but those exist in Diablo 2 as well.
Both games have room for improvement so I’m not going to say DIablo 4 should be exactly like either of those games. It should look at all of the Diablo games as well as other aRPGs and judge the ideas based on their merit rather than “D3 sucked, ignore everything about it and make it like D2”.
A limit on skills does make the player have to make choices about which abilities to take rather than being able to simply pick up all the one point wonders and be like everybody else doing the same.
1 Like
I do not want a d2-lod hi-rez clone with D4. However, I have always disliked the D3 skill lock. I mean what is the point of unlocking all these runes in the road to level 70 if I can only have access to 6 of them?! The skill lock in D3 is absolutely because of console/bat wing controller.
During this break between seasons I decided to pickup playing D2 again, but I play off-line only, single player, solo self-found. It is refreshing to reread the single player untwinked magic find guide by Jiansonz, that I PDF’d ages ago, and then apply those concepts in game. It is refreshing to relearn the controls to become nimble again. It is refreshing to actually pay close attention to loot drops instead of CC/CD/CDR/Mainstat. The RoS loot system has always been too narrow and over simplified. In my little journey in D3 again I also rediscovered what I hated about D2, such as:
- the forced potion chugging while leveling
- the retarded merc a. i.
- the lack of viability of some skills (ex: hydra)
- monster immunity system
D4 should be a much better D2 and D3 game. A PC game designed for PC keyboard and mouse.
1 Like
FFXIV has 16 abilities easily accessible at all times.
Stop blaming stuff you don’t like in D3 on consoles.
Show me how one is going to fluidly switch between 10+ abilities in a fast moving ARPG like D2 or a RTS like StarCraft, with a bat wing controller. The D3 game was dumbed down for console and bat wing controllers. D3 PC was developed in tandem D3 console, so it was designed to fit console first, because keyboard and mouse are much wider input devices. You are free to follow this fantasy about skill locking being a benefit but many us of aren’t drinking the kool-aid with you. Any long time PC gamer knows batwing controller is less fluid and less accurate than kybd + mouse; especially where accuracy is a requirement.
1 Like
Honestly wouldnt be that hard to use 10 skills with a controller. A modifier with the 4 right-side buttons gives you 8 buttons easily accessible. Add another modifier and it is 12.
The area where controllers suck is not buttons, it is accuracy/targeting.
But that is a separate issue.
The skill cap can be a bad thing (even if I disagree that it is), and still not be because of consoles.
Anyway, the console version of D4 really should support mouse and keyboard too. Then everyone could pick the control scheme they prefer (and yeah, mouse+kb is vastly superior in most games)
1 Like
You do know that PoE, a game considered by D2 enthusiasts to be the spiritual successor of D2, is available on console without losing any abilities?
Like I pointed out already, FFXIV has 16 abilities easily accessible at all times, with many times more than that available in short notice.
At least educate yourself before trying to talk about the limits of controllers.
If D3 was designed to fit console first then why did they wait a year to release it on consoles instead of releasing it first there? Also, how often do action games even need the full keyboard to play?
I agree. It makes sense to offer the K+M UI on consoles and let the player choose which they prefer. It’s how FFXIV handles it on the PS4.
A common design of bat-wing controllers is:
- 2 upper-frontal buttons (2 index fingers)
- 2 lower-frontal trigger buttons (2 middle fingers)
- joypad / joystick (left thumb)
- 4 buttons arranged in a diamond pattern (right thumb)
It is quite difficult to employ both thumbs, modifier fingers (index/middle finges), steady the controller, manage to swap between and activate 10+ skills, all of the while fluidly/nimbly moving/targeting/attacking/evading/defending at high speed. The accuracy and targeting requirement dramatically lowers the effectiveness with bat-wing controllers. It is possible to do it, but the skill level to be effective at high speed is going to be excessively high. Performing those actions in rapid succession, with a bat-wing controller over many hours, is going to place a much greater strain on the hands, fingers, wrists of the players. It is far more simpler to not attempt to layer the action/key mapping with modifier keys combos to overcome the deficiencies of bat-wing controllers. To hammer my point home, take a look at “The Core” keymapping for Starcraft 2 with its multiple layering. Here is a link to the demo:
http://ivanvolosyuk.github.io/thecorevisualizer/visualizer/
The above is exceedingly difficult when starting out and in someways will never be truly safe/efficient in my opinion given some very obtuse finger/wrist movements. Let’s be clear. There is no bat-wing controller on the market that will allow 2-handed humanoids to be as effective in a RTS like Starcraft 2, as the same humanoid using a keyboard and mouse. The accuracy/targeting requirement cannot be overcome without very high risk of injury. Even when risk of injury is set aside accuracy and targeting are an in surmountable problem when comparing bat-wing controller to keyboard and mouse.
D2 is not as extreme as SC-2 with key mapping like The Core, but it is significant enough that they devs went with a very simplified 4 keys + 2 mouse style layout structure that is easily mappable to bat-wing controllers with D3. Two additional points driving the decisions of the devs were:
1 - layering the commands leads to a painful play experience which ends up hurting console D3 sales
2 - console players discover that it is vastly easier to use keyboard and mouse, choose PC D3, and console D3 sales suffer
God forbid a large parental group attempts legal action (class action suit) against Activ-Blizz for “intentionally designing a game to cause or promote repetitive stress injuries (RSI)”. This is a big risk that I agree they (Blizz) should not take. Since they should engage the above risk, they should design the game for PC with keyboard and mouse controls and not dumb down the game for controllers, and then produced an altered console game to make allowances for bat-wing controllers if that would not destroy the game, game play, immersion, and create a failed product on consoles. If it can’t be done properly on consoles then don’t bother with consoles at all. The problem is Activ-Blizz can’t bring themselves to make PC only games. They are like drug addicts when it comes to game product sales.
It would be better with more skill slots and monster resistances though. I prefer choosing my skill for the appropriate situation rather than face roll the whole game with 6 skills. It also allows for more interesting itemization.
This game desperately needs to embrace character diversity, I agree. To do that there needs to be more choices and freedom. Choosing 6 skills is not a great system cause you’re trading it for being able to choose between a larger variety of skills. You cant max every skill with your points so you will have to pick and choose which skills you will pump, how much you will pump it, and which are worth a spot on your keyboard.
People criticize d2 stats, at least you got to choose where they went. You chose if you wanted max block or more vit and how much str you needed. It’s not rocket science, but it allows for more uniqueness among heros.
PoE made improvements to the original D2 style layout where all of the attacks were funneled through left and right mouse buttons. All of the other in-combat commands, outside 4 potion keys, are for swapping commands in and out of the left and right mouse buttons. PoE has double the buttons but fewer combat usable skills to employ when on considers the number of employable skill/spell gems.
Part of the issue with bat-wing controllers is the pressure sensitivity design of the joypad and joystick. The harder you press the more exaggerated the movement is. To swap between running/jogging/walking one has to adjust pressure. Accidentally exceeding the thresholds is common place. With keyboard and mouse those 3 commands can easily be mapped to separate keys without layering.
Here is the deal though. Not many in the market have controller extensions and some may dismiss the game as too complicated if they have to buy peripherals.
I don’t think that ff xiv having several skills is necessarily a good comp for d4 if ff xiv uses controller extensions. Probably not what Blizz has in mind preferably since it’s one more barrier for their customers.
Do you think Blizzard’s goal is to maximize net revenue or to make the game as good as possible? I think clearly it’s the former and that is why some of these things are done. Sometimes the two goals are aligned but sometimes they’re not
1 Like
You know I’ve been looking for a YouTube video demo of a D3 stutter-stepping evading multishot DH with speed pylon active doing solo GR 110+ against large swarms of fast ranged attackers. That will require some real fine motor movement skill. If you guys know of such a video with a standard 8 button non-programmable bat-wing controller please share. I have some cookie dough in my freezer that I’m looking for a reason to bake. No cheats please.
Monster resistances should be in the game regardless, and I think that a skill limit should be higher than 6 to compensate for the idea that you should be bringing multiple damage types from different skills.
The biggest problem I have with no limit is that it basically just lets you pick up all your utility skills, and most non-damage skills are still pretty good even without a ton of points in them. Even if they didn’t bring back D2’s problem of entirely too much “+x to all skills” going around.
Honestly Diablo has never done stats well. Diablo 1 there was no interesting choices because caps pretty much forced you into certain routes. Diablo 2 there was no interesting choice because in 99% of of scenarios it was “Get STR/DEX for gear, then dump everything into VIT”. Diablo 3 there was no interesting choice because there just wasn’t a choice.
I know some form of Strength, Dexterity, and Energy/Intellect are standard RPG stats but I think they’re actually part of the problem. Strength is just not going to be super useful to a caster in a game centered around combat. This isn’t DnD where my Mage can if nothing else get a bonus to carry capacity and a few skill checks.
I think that attributes and being able to assign points in them should be there in Diablo 4, but I think they should play around with the idea of using a new set of attributes. One where every one has something useful for every class so there is actually a choice, and not “dump everything into the 1 or 2 stats blatantly designed for your class”.
1 Like
An “issue” that doesn’t bother the vast majority of console players isn’t an issue.
Your position is indefensible when there are console games easily managing a lot more than 10 abilities.
If you don’t know what you’re talking about, please refrain from making comments from the peanut gallery. I don’t even know wtf are these controller extensions you’re trying to pretend FFXIV players need to use to play on console.
Wow, what a load of BS.
Playing a game with a controller places more strain on your hands than a keyboard and mouse? This is reaching tin-foil hat conspiracy levels. You do know that carpal tunnel is a common affliction among professional gamers right?
@ Strolin
Stop blaming consoles for the 6 spell strategy. That is a restriction the developers went for no matter what. Even if D3 would had been strictly PC this would be the result.
From what I understand the game gives us six choice’s and we have to figure out how to best perform based on that.
@ the rest of you.
This is a suggestion for the new game. I too want larger setup since from what we have seen and heard game strategy in combat is important. A group of mobs will have different approaches. A spellcaster may want to kill off ranged before melee and therefore it would be great to have some different abilities at hand.
To encounter a fight and have to town rearrange spells doesn’t feel right, I want to clear then and there.
Sure most often I suspect we will use 3 or 4 core spells but it would be nice to have at least 2 more for specific situations.
Plus utility and movement.
All in all I personally think that a Max of 8-10 spells would be ok.
We will see when the game is launched how it will play out maybe we are waiting our breath here.