DH main playing Barb this season

Barbarian
7

Hey Iria!

First: congrats on the 130! That’s a really excellent clear.

Forgive me if I reiterate some stuff you already know, but I figured it’s best to start at the beginning:

Rend deals its damage entirely in ticks. This is the same whether or not you have Ambo’s active, it’s just that with Ambo’s, there are less total ticks, but they do much more damage.

There is no on-cast damage from Rend (you can see this if you start a game on a very low difficulty and then manually cast Rend on some foes: instead of dying instantly, they have full health for maybe .20 seconds or so and then explode).

As you know, Ambo-Rends (applied by WW) do not proc AD, while Hard-Cast (HC) Rends do proc AD (20% chance- the usual- on each tick of damage).

Ambo-Rends and HC Rends overwrite one another. So, if you HC Rend and then immediately start spinning, you will probably overwrite your HC Rend before it ever deals any AD.

As a result, the best rotation seems to be HC Rend - HC Rend - WW, repeat. This gives those HC Rends enough time to proc some AD before you overwrite them.

It’s possible to HC Rend three times, but this cuts it very close on dropping Taeguk.

The less WWing you can do, the more damage you will see, but the vast majority of your healing comes from WW, so there’s always a delicate balance between doing damage and staying alive.

I hope that answers your question.

I’m all for DH buffs, but as Free mentioned, 1) We already tried to be helpful with that and it did not go so well, and 2) It’s probably getting a little late in the game to be proposing more changes.

That said, I’d be happy to give it another try. I will say I don’t have enough recent DH expertise to really “crunch the numbers” on tons of items, but, I know you are a numbers guy yourself, so that shouldn’t be a problem.

I’ll caution you that putting together a super-long list of suggestions like Free and I did is probably not a good play right now. The majority of our suggestions were not adopted, which, in a roundabout way, is what has led to WW/Rend being so far ahead of all other Barb builds.

Instead, I’ll refer you to a handful of posts in the recent DH buff thread in GD that Idolis started. In this section, dmkt suggests just a few items, one of which is designed to buff ranged builds, while another would buff mid-range/melee builds.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be these exact ideas, but I think this is really the way to go. It would allow for all DH builds to be significantly improved in one fell swoop, without the need for revisions to a zillion different items.

The most pertinent posts are 395 - 411, take a look:

I’ll say it again because I think it’s important: focusing broad-ranging buffs onto just a few items is the way to go.

In BBP, Free and I suggested 30-ish changes of which 7 or 8 were adopted, directly or indirectly. It was pretty cool to see that happen, but the uneven adoption of these changes led to the all-WW-all-the-time situation we have now. People are playing H90 a bit now, because it’s new, but my guess is that next season that will fade.

Anyway, that’s all I’ve got for now. Let me know if you have thoughts on any of this, or specific ideas you want to talk through.

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8

I see, thanks for the info. The way I did my 130 clear was by spamming the manual Rend while holding down the WW button. I believe this may have interspersed the casts in a way such that each monster had 1 auto Rend and 1 regular Rend at all times. Of course, this isn’t the optimal damage but I felt it was super safe.

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9

I agree with Rage: broad-ranging buffs are the way to go.

I’ll add to it by saying that asking for buffs to make you viable in group (meta) play is a waste of time. If you get buffs aside from the new set, they’ll be on specific items that target under-performing or popular builds, and they will be focused on improving the solo experience. You’ve got one or two folk in the DH community who refuse to hear this, but take my word for it: Asking for group buffs is a waste of time. If a build gets buffed and incidentally ends up viable in group play, well, that’s icing on the cake.

You’ll also have folk who want drastic overhauls to items and sets. Again, this is not realistic, even if it’s not completely out of the question. After all, all of our Rend items got new affixes (albeit only one, Ambo’s Pride, received a unique legendary affix). Keep your requests straight-forward and simple.

Finally, a comment about something Rage said:

The emphasis is mine, and I hope the message is clear. After some initial tweaks to items like Remorseless and Fjord Cutter, those items never received additional updates (aside from a bug fix). As a result, their parent builds still lag behind Rend in terms of power and utility. They still need bigger multipliers–in the case of Remorseless, much larger–but it’s also clear that the devs are done with Barbs. And that’s fine. We did get one top 3 solo build that’s also incredibly useful for most game activities, and our new set is also very strong, but with a few more tweaks, we could have all of our builds within 2-5 tiers of each other.

My point is that we’re never getting those necessary “few more tweaks,” and neither will any other class. If you’re lucky, you’ll get a build that is top 5, and maybe your new set will be fairly competitive. Other builds will likely be stronger than they were, but intra-class balance is not a concern for the developers–and likely never will be.

I could, of course, be wrong. Maybe after next patch, when they sit down to balance things, we’ll get those “few more tweaks” our builds desperate need. But I doubt it.

Hope this helps.

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10

Impressive.

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11

Barb guide: hold down WW.

/thread

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The laws of thermodynamics are referred colloquially as “you can’t win” and “you can’t even tie”. The first law states that energy is neither created nor destroyed in a closed system, while the second law refers to the entropy in the universe increases with time. In patch 2.6.5, barbs were weak but at least had five builds within about 5 GRs of the top build.

Now:

Blizzard would have been far better off by simply modifying individually the 6-piece barbarian class set bonuses instead of adjusting so many supporting legendaries, resulting in poor intraclass balance. For DH, I almost do not want a new set. DHs have several builds that have similar power and unique playstyles. I simply wish that Blizzard buffs each 6 piece class set appropriately.

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13

All of which mattered this much: [ ]

Surely you jest, comrade, for my table doesn’t call for nerfs and such, and seeks to enrich the play of Barbs everywhere.

But I’m sure erroneously discussing thermodynamics in broken sentences is lucrative for you, so do carry on.

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14

Salt and spice, and all things nice, that’s what little Frees are made of. :wink:

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15

and therein lies the problem with this game…

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hear hear. 1000000% agreed. This all comes down to Blizzard having no idea on how to balance this game.

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17

Set changes are definitely the way to go. I think that Blizzard does have some idea how to balance the game, but unfortunately, has not done a good job on overall balance. In the balancing patch falling 2.6.9, I sincerely hope that they improve both intraclass balance and balance between classes.

To date, there are five classes that have received new sets and power-enhancing updates to supporting legendaries: Barbarians, crusaders, monks, witch doctors, and wizards. Barbarians were the only ones that had a centralized, massive proposal to buff a multitude items and passive skills.

The current result for these five classes in terms of top worldwide clears are:

Barbarian 147
Crusader 150
Monk 144
Witch doctor 150
Wizard 143

This observation demonstrates that the resulting power of the classes top build are divergent where barbarians are in the middle. Crusaders and witch doctors did not take nearly as aggressive steps to my knowledge and yet their top players clear GR 150. My point is that Blizzard does take feedback; however, the amount of effort put in to buff request a preferred class does not correlate with the magnitude of success.

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18

Your comparison is dubious. Prior to the buffs, Rend was completely broken; the dominant WW build was well below this clear range, and our strongest build–Vile Charge–maxed out around 135. The Crusader and WD clears you’re referring to rely on their new sets, but ours is a fixed older set, and our new set can clear in the high 130s. In addition, we also received buffs to two other builds via changes to Fjord Cutter and Remorseless.

My point is that we received 2 patches worth of buffs that effected almost every build in our roster–and before that, we also received Mortick’s Brace–not a buff on its own, but, in the company of the other items, a welcome addition. I’m comfortable in saying the effort was justified.

Sounds to me like you’re saying, “Don’t bother, Blizzard does whatever it does,” which I’ve heard before, particularly from a few folk in the DH community who don’t want to be bothered to advocate for their class in ways proven to be effective.

You can worry about intra-class balance all you want. Meanwhile, DHs don’t have a single build in spitting distance of most other classes. If a new set fixes that, bring it on.

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19

Barbs essentially received two new builds where I consider ww/rend new because of how this build plays with Ambo’s pride (with the controversial addition of auto-apply of rend). There is now one completely dominant barbarian build that far surpasses all others in terms of power, as Rage noted and your table supports. This phenomenon is not unique to barbarians and is true for several other classes. For example, how many witch doctors are not running a spirit barrage build?

I would simply be happy if they buff the 6-piece DPS bonuses of marauder, UE, and shadow by about 6-9 GRs damage equivalent, dependent on the specific set. Blizzard would not be introducing new mechanics and would not need to worry about strange/unintended interactions/mechanics.

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20

As far as problems go, that’s a good one to have. It means we have a top 3 build that’s really good at, well, everything. It means we’re strong, fast, and efficient, where we used to be none of those things. All the other builds need is a little more juice to close the gap.

Y’all worrying about intra-class balance on a 8 year-old game with its sequel in active development need to shake off the Blizzard blues and enjoy the good stuff when (and if) it arrives in your stocking.

Did y’all organize and work to achieve this like the Barb community did for their class? What have you done to make this happen? Or are you just spitting in the wind?

You’ll be lucky if they ever touch the old items again. I hope they do, but I also hope the new DH set has you cruising 140+ in record time.

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21

I disagree. The best way, imho, is skill changes. Set changes may affect more than 1 skill, causing issues for starters. The same applies to legendary items.

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Did crusader organize like barbarians to get their build that can clear GR 150?

Did witch doctors organize like barbarians to get their build that can clear GR 150?

This clearly illustrates that build power is independent of centralized requests or the magnitude of those requests. Frankly, I think it will be random luck about where DHs end up.

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23

New sets, both of which have already received nerfs, both likely to receive additional nerfs.

No, it clearly doesn’t, as the 2.5 patches of buffs Barbs got points out, but you seem intent on ignoring that.

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Most likely. Every patch that has occurred after a class had a build in non-season clear GR 147 or above has been nerfed (thorns necro 147, wizards 148, crusaders 150).

The point still stands that crusaders with nerfs in patch 2.6.7a and 2.6.8 still clear GR 150. Crusaders and witch doctors have been far more tacit in their approach. Witch doctors were buffed substantially so that top players clear GR 150 (the numbers on the PTR are irrelevant as this is not the live game).

I suspect that the new DH set will be in the 144-150 range in terms of top end power. Since Blizzard decides power, it can be anywhere in that range and it does not matter what anyone says.

I think the fact that Blizzard initially held firm about the complete removal of the rend damage modifier in patch 2.6.7 after a 1500+ post thread illustrates this. If it were not for crusaders being completely OP in patch 2.6.7, barbarians would not have gotten lamentation with a 100%-150% rend damage modifier in patch 2.6.7a along with the crusader nerf.

Edit:

True. I am glad that I did not say that. You missed the point. Blizzard considers forum feedback; however, they have the ultimate power to decide. The change to lamentation relative to the PTR was identified on November 1 at Blizzcon was posted on the forums. Over November 1 and 2, more than 10 threads were created on the rend topic. On November 2, Free stated that he was contacting Nevalistis directly.

Overall, more than 30 threads were created on this topic. On November 3, the “Do Not Nerf Rend” thread was started. After more than 1700 posts in this particular thread, Nevalistis on November 11 responded that the rend damage modifier was not going to be on the lamentation belt in patch 2.6.7. This is what occurred. Additional threads were made to advocate for the damage modifier return.
After Nevalistis’s response and the “temporary” locking (that oddly kept resetting daily for a month) of the “Do Not Nerf Thread” thread, a multitude of other threads were made. Of note, one thread that was created November 12 was titled: “A BARB RESPONSE TO THE LAMENTATION NERF”. Free wrote in his OP:

This is not disputed. Therefore, one can not claim that Blizzard listened and ACTED based on you or the barb community in relation to this issue for patch 2.6.7. You can accurately claim that Blizzard did listen in patch 2.6.7a; however, they did not give back the full 150%-200% modifier but 100%-150%. Therefore, you can not claim that they listened completely.

My point stands that other classes (crusaders and witch doctors) have gotten buffs that have far exceeded barbarians and have used a more tacit approach. The idea that DH and necromancers will only get significant by following the barabarian centralized example is a logical fallacy.

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25

This is also not true. The multiplier came back due to tremendous community outcry, and from conversations that I had with Nev. There was a lot of back and forth between the community and the developers, and without that multiplier, the build would barely be above where the old whirlwind build sat in terms of power potential.

The narrative that the community has no influence over the direction of the game is flat out false. We proved it. And we showed everyone else how to approach it, how to get things done.

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Holy moly I had no idea. And here I was thinking Blizzard finally got their crap together regarding barb on their own, but it was you awesome folks that made barbs shine as we knew they could.

I am in utter amazement. Man, thanking everyone for their tireless effort in this endeavor really is not enough, but from me it’s sincere and true.

Thank you SO VERY much!! Epic community here!!

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