D4 Itemization Blog, post feedback here!

I would like to see the ability to “level up” a item. weapons more specifically, but could be any item type if your really looking for that “easy to play hard to master” effect this could easy suit that nitch. some other RPG (less seen on a ARPG game) do this, like the more you use that weapon the better your character is at using it concept.

like say you find a legendary at level 5 give it a XP bar ontop of the xp bar for leveling we already have. and after i kill “500 monsters” it levels to 6, the affix can get a few % stronger and such and if you tune it right where it isnt out leveling your char, say those 500 kills leveled my toon to 7 but i still want to use that legendary i found at 5, and after the kills it leveled it to 6 its now suitable to still use and i can keep on using it.

i can see flaws in this as you find the lego you want at level 5 you will use it the rest of game, for this i say just put a cap of a MAX +level to it. so this level 5 lego can only level up 2 times or such and after that im encouraged to seek new gear as to start this process over again. “easy to learn hard to master”

*end game for veterans - put this so a max level lego at 40(think that was the rumor at max level ?) can only level once or twice so its another avenue beside just “raw char XP” to go beyond and it would make it feel like if i wanted to try other legos/builds another “task” besides finding it only then a trip to the respect guy and i could play that build, but still make it stronger with adding replay ability to the game, and bragging rights for leveling a lot of gear to swap as needed for certain key dungeons ?? also upping the amount of difficulty in mastering those extra sets of gear we will need for your key system of “fire damage mob dungeon”

*time = Power -and then go you can go level it up some before its extra power is unlocked (dont make it to insane for the 41th level of the item (so your causal gamer can get this on there few days off work) but to unlock a 2nd affix/power/stat-boost or something make it “a strong weeks worth of playing” to unlock the 42nd level affix that wouldn’t tip the scales of late game too extreme but definitely gives you a edge over your fellow players (for the hardcore veterans people here)

*player Economy - also adds a lot of VALUE to trade value on items, if these items are able to be traded, i know a lot of people who would want vast differences in the item economy trade list. say there’s 50 people selling the same pair of boots, but yours have been worn and leveled and gives you a higher value to the item in the market. a strong idea for trade crazed players - they bankroll a item, give to there hardcore playing buddy - he levels it for them, trade guru sells the xp leveled item for higher profit - that they can split. (opens up to a guild thing here strengthening the items for guild profits/stronger gear for your members ?)

    • Other side of the coin for this idea - -
      But, another way to do this would be to make it any xp item Zero Trade-able once leveled (make a trip to the blacksmith to give us the “upgrade button” to ok levels before we bind it our toon forever) adding alot of value to those players who have leveled up items vs the guy who traded for the best gear for his build and has zero xp on it (making it so the trade guy has to play the game as well besides just buying and selling to gear out and then just quit)
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In addition to providing the above-stated benefit, we want these new stats to also act as pre-requisites for empowering certain other affixes. If you don’t have enough of a specific power, you can still equip the item, but you may not benefit from an affix linked to that power.

Not sure if a specific +rank is always locked by the same kind of power, or if it’s RNG based. If it’s RNG based, that will be an annoying additional layer of RNG trying to get the right affix locked by the right kind of power you happen to be using in your build.

If specific skills +rank is always locked by a certain power type, you could more easily plan builds around certain levels of power. It does seem like a build could end up just being, stack the power type used to unlock +rank of whatever ability it is that you use. That would be about as complex as having to stack the right +elemental damage in D3.

In terms of item complexity, I’m more interested in unique affixes from various items that play together in unique ways. IE: some Path of Exile unique items have affixes that many players wouldn’t even think were useful at first glance, but then they combine with certain abilities and other uniques in sometimes crazy ways to create a playstyle that’s not even possible without the right combination. Some feel almost game breaking like the right combination of effects that set up an auto-bomber build. Sometimes even one easier to get item can create interesting new builds/playstyles like a poet’s pen.

Of course, the worst part about PoE’s complex item system is that if you don’t participate in trade, you miss out on 90% of the potential builds in the game and their in-game trade system is garbage-tier. Third party sites are basically mandatory to make decent use of trade and they refuse to do anything about it. Don’t do that. Have a decent in-game trade system + the item complexity to make it interesting. D3v’s AH wasn’t just bad because of some lame nonsense about “the reward loop,” it was because itemization in D3 was trash and not interesting. You were only after boring base stat increases and nothing else.

My only concern is the example they gave where angelic power unlocked resistances. Resistances were pretty much the way to survive in D2, so my concern is builds could end up locked to a certain type of power for ease of play. I hope each type of power unlocks unique defenses that play into an optimal build for that character, that way it feels like a flavor and we still have build diversity: everyone isn’t running secondary or primary angelic with whatever else.

Overall it sounds like an interesting system.

Take a look on picture of items in the blog. Fire res is Demonic Power when Cold res is Angelic Power so maybe it won’t be as bad as you are thinking.

Wait, so in D3, main stat gave damage and armor or resist at the same time, so just focusing on it would improve multiple attributes, so you were really inclined to focus on it, correct? In D4 however, “Attack” does not provide armor/resist, and “Defense” does not provide damage, so already that issue is gone.

I understand and share the concern that if the essentials of a system design are simplistic, they can easily lead to non-interesting simplistic results, D3 being an indisputable example of that phenomenon (like I am unsure of how the stat system works in D3 after 100s of hours of gameplay).

However, the main game-design factor that separates Blizzard from IceFrog or GGG is that their game design is based on pretty simplistic rules that (most of the time) lead to complex and interesting situations. This is how they traditionally achieved the “Easy to Learn, Hard to Master” mantra, the rules are few and simple, but all of their potential interactions and end results are many and complex and you need to be aware of all of these results to be able to master the game. Even in D3, despite its failure in achieving this, you can clearly see the signs and intent of achieving the same thing in the simplifications they made to the game-systems.

So in the end it boils down to the ability of the dev team to achieve such a feat. However, I do not think the solution is to complicate the baseline systems, as that is not the spirit of Blizzard. Diablo and D2 were based on oversimplifications of RPG rules, WC and SC were based on oversimplifications of rules of Strategy games, etc. I know they failed (on that front) with D3, but I have faith, because well first Blizzard has a good track record of learning from their mistakes, and second David Kim has shown the ability to pull that kind of “Simple Rules / Complex Results” design in SC2 already. Plus to quote the guy directly on your concern here:

Solely picking your items based on Attack and Defense will almost never be the optimal way to play

I have something to say about why legendary powers that make builds in D3 should be avoided to be on the gear again in D4, and about the legendary power consumable:

Read it here: [D4] The problem with legendary powers (and solution)

This was suggested by someone before.

I think a simple change they could do is to put a lesser effect to the item as a base and an improvement if have the right amount of the power.

For example: the item could give 5% fire res and 25% fire res if have 55 demonic power (this is from the rare amulet they show to us).

This way the affix wouldn’t be completely useless if we don’t have that type of power but wouldn’t lose the choice of rise one power or the other to get the different effects (for this idea would be upgrades).

So the idea is to use the power to upgrade an effect insteado of get the effect.

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Weapons in D4 from what we have seen all have certain number weapon attack and that’s it no matter what type of weapon it is. I think that’s so boring. They are too much of a stat stick that way.

I think each type of weapon should have their own characteristics baseline like daggers hit the fastest with the least dmg for example. Blizz could go with D2 system with fast, very fast, etc speed or D3 which shows number. Only maces can roll stun on hit. Whatever Blizz can come up with that’s flavorful and interesting. The point is weapon type should matter. It’s more interesting and flavorful both mechanically and rpg wise this way.

Well, this is not really a suggestion. I think it’s the least we should expect from the game. It also speaks to the broader idea that items should have identity.

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I agree, in real life different weaons are used for different things and in different ways. Even 2 1h swords can be used in different ways. Pierce, hack and slash: different swords are designed to be better in at least one of this things. Also, swords are better to deflect an attack than an axe, for example, but axes have a better force (damage) multiplier.

(edited): Also, different lenght weapons should have different attack distances.

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Wow i have never thought of giving swords a defense rate bonus over an axe or something
Thats brilliant :0

I like to see some videos to understand how weapons work. I think they could check some of those channels to understand better how weapons were used and which basic stats they could give them.


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You can also read books too. Most of these fellows have gotten their info from such books.
There are actually more interesting medieval martial video’s out there too. I have watched all these but go find the ones that show the styles of the Italian sword fighting manuscripts - where they demonstrate the various ‘guards’. Another is on the fighting style of using a shield. I’ll try to find these and link them later.
I have quite a library on this topic, one thing I found interesting is when you go back past the 1400’s there are no known works that explain how broadsword fighting techniques worked, it’s all conjecture (well educated conjecture in some instances)

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These two

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Well, my goal was more about to know the characteristics of the different weapons and how that could translate into item affixes. But yes, the real combat styles could serve as inspiration for skills. Now, Diablo doesn’t have that kind of combat, so i don’t expect a lot of realism in that area.

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Yes, I understand I’m just a history nerd, along with a gaming nerd. Ha!

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The big difference is
You are not doging and parrying all the time and eventually hit the enemy to strike them down
You hit them all the time to do enough damage to lower their HP bar xD

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The unnamed Item that adds Legendary Powers to your Items should maybe more work like kanais cube or something similar.
You can find a legendary power and equip it in in one of your lets say 5 slots or smth for legendary powers you can use.

Limiting the amount of how many you can equip overall and leave us the ability to still exchange items if we get a better one without having to find exactly the same legendary power over and over just to be able to switch gear.

I could also imagine somthing like charms from diablo 2 that have the legendary powers, and an extra inventory or slots for charms limiting those (like one big or three small ones). That would give us the ability to play around with a legendary powers just like we can play around with gear but without having both cancel each other out.
You could focus on Gear and you could focus on legendary powers you want to use. legendary powers could be traded and so on…

not sure if anyone mentioned this idea, but since we are having some sort of seasons in d4 as well (which is a great idea) it would be lovely to see legendary items in next season from previous season’s top leaderboards players with their names on one of the equipped items meaning;

  • One of the 1st ranked player’s items (the one he/she crafted to perfection) will be available in legendary items pool to be dropped in the next season with his name on it.
  • Some players are indeed legendary with their hours spent playing the game so this is just a small token to them.
  • Example: “Cindercoat” will become “[Player Name]'s Cindercoat”
  • The drop rate for this item will be significantly higher than the usual “Cindercoat”, almost like an ancient drop rate for this item.
  • The item will keep its added/crafted affixes and changes made by player.
  • This will save a lot of time for devs as well to come up with new items or better item tiers (legendary<mithic<hero)

I cant wait for this game to come out and be able to play with the great feedback from all fans around the world!

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Stinky Crappy Player’s Cindercoat :slight_smile:

Love it :smiley:

I nearly dont have enough of an imagination to believe Blizzard would make an A-RPG where weapons do not have different attack speeds and dmg ranges.
It has to be because the game is just in early development and they haven’t gotten around to it yet.
Right Blizzard?!

Anything else would be embarrassing.

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