D4 is a P2W MMO game

Extra payment for early access in a game with a competitive aspect makes it P2W. The in-game RM shop is also a red flag, despite their pledge to sell only cosmetics. Early access is NOT a cosmetic.
Open world makes it a MMO and there are many other systems typically found in MMOs.
If you like P2W MMOs like D:I or Lost Ark you’ll probably like D4, otherwise you may not.


When and what do you compete on at launch, when there will be no ladder untill seson starts, that will be a month or more after the initial launch date.

Or you think about the world first braging rights, that no one will remember, nor care about after a year or so?

I played many open world games that were not MMOs, but D4 has some aspects yes. But it’s still not a full blown MMO.


Game has PVP, people starting later will have no chance against people paying to start earlier. How do you know there will not be non-seasonal leaderboards, like in D3?
Also how can you be sure that there will not be an option to pay to start earlier or advance faster in seasons?

People will buy the game long after launch, can still PvP because PvP is not about lvl it’s about skill. And you will know there are people ahead of you, so you won’t pvp untill you’re maxed out. The community might arrange sessions for low level characters, but there is no PvP ladder.

Because there simply isn’t any. Sesons will be the competition, and nothing outside of that, like in D2.


What type of “reasoning” is that people will always be starting later.

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Not true at all.
Pay to Win literally means you pay cash from your bank account or credit card and get gear, weapons and better kill fast deals.

D3 and D4 have nothing like this.

Getting early access to a game just means you get to play it before others…it is not P2W.

Not true again. Immortal is a cash grab but Diablo IV has no cash grab or P2W.


That’s not entirely true, if the OP was correct about being able to gear for PVP for several days/weeks before other people. That would be a definite advantage since you’d have time to gear before someone who doesn’t pay extra.

But that idea relies on two assumptions; 1) that the PVP season won’t just be like D3 seasons where everyone resets to scratch so everyone will be on a level playing field. And 2) that PVP won’t somehow be normalized (like how challenge rifts in D3 give everyone the same set of gear to play with).

All that said, either way it’s not as horrible as a system where you flat out buy levels, power or gear for cash.

Okay so, say there was no early access, and I buy the game.three weeks after you. That would give you a definite advantage, right?

You have had a ton of time to gear compared to me.

It’s the same thing. In the long run it makes no difference.


It’s still fair because in the scenario you posit, it’s the late players fault that they’re late. Neither player has a paid advantage it’s just that player two by their own choice decided to start later. As opposed to the other scenario where someone pays more to get an advantage.

To be honest, this is why PVP in a heavily gear based game is a bad idea. You’ll always have people who start later so they are always disadvantaged. The solution is all PVP gear should be normalised otherwise the game is inherently unfair towards latecomers. As I mentioned earlier, the challenge rift gear is a good example of how it could be done.

early access to no-season/no-ladder what a day to be alive :wink:

oh you were going for world firsts that nobody cares about? Sadge.
if youre going for world firsts youre dedicated enough to buy the expensive thing :slight_smile:

it’s kinda whatever tbh. i dont even remember who had the cool world firsts in d3. was it krip? athene? krip’s brother? who was it? idk.


It’s completely true.

P2W is used in gaming with the meaning “Pay to Win,” to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

Diablo IV is not pay to win in any sense of the word.


The whining… My goodness

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What if it wasn’t the late player’s fault/choice?

Couldn’t afford it until after a couple pay checks?
Has to rely on others to gift it, such as a bday or christmas?
Has to wait until purchasing an upgraded system to play?
…and countless other scenarios where money prohibited starting at regular launch?

P2W influences effort vs reward. When the effort is made or skipped (4 days early, launch day, ten years later) doesn’t matter in the effort vs reward ratio. In D4, no effort will be skippable, and the game will be out long enough for any player to put in the same effort as everyone else.

The leaderboard argument doesn’t work. If the positions on the ladder were fixed and unchangeable (like in a marathon), then there could be an argument about starting early. However, they are not fixed. Anyone who started early can be supplanted by someone who started late (launch day, 1 month, ten years). In other words, starting early doesn’t give any advantage on the ladder, it’s the effort that gives the advantage.


While this is true of any game over time, in D4, completely true.

The only validity for a great many comments I have seen so far would be if the game had been out for at least six months to a year in its full form with at least one DLC and had a chance to settle in. I am sure people will diss that but it’s fairly close to accurate because dissing something before it has even had a chance to establish itself…welll… there’s a word for that.


I mean, people still remember some of the D3 world firsts from back in 2012. That kind of bragging rights is part of the charm of online games.

you are 110% on spot with this comment

my self be hightwarlord in pvp also a pvp player in d2 and a old 1.10 speed runnner , 2 or 3 day of early access is so big for pvp player to take control and farm pvp zone most player will be cap level with good gear , poor new player going to pvp this is 110% pure ptw , he all know pvp player are not seasonal player ,

But it does not matter now. World first is good in that short time, than it ends quickly.

Yeah because 4 days of lags, disconects, queues, crashes and bug fiesta is enough to gear up for pvp. We don’t even know what will be a good setup for pvp. But keep on dreaming old man.


The 1-2 people who remember that stuff.

I understand what Indian is saying. People act like Bards will be singing tales of their feats for ages to come when in reality, that’s not happening. I guarantee the vast majority of players don’t care about last season’s first let alone 10 years ago.

Extremely quickly. Many hardcore players don’t even care about worlds first before the season is even over with. Any game where you can bot to give yourself a huge leg up on the competition is not really revered for it’s accompishments. Sure, high paragon does not guarantee your success but someone with 2000 paragon will have an easier time than someone with 1000.

None of your progress is saved from prelaunch. Lrn2read.

They talk about the 4 days early launch, not the beta.