You make a very nice case, and I like your format. I really enjoyed reading your post and your reasoning.
However, I enjoy the simplicity of D3 stats and I think most of that should carry over to D4. I do not want another game (think PoE) where I need multiple spreadsheets and 3rd party tools to find out what is best for my character. I don’t want to have to analyze every item I come across to see what menial improvement it may have. Items should be easily identifiable on how it improves my build. I want to come home from work or wake up on Saturday with my coffee and get to monster slaughtering!
Ah, the classic talking past each other using the same words problem. Skill points into the skill tree and attribute points into STR, DEX, INT, VIT, etc are two very different things. The attribute points turned into an equation that was solvable, so Blizzard solved it for us and built in the solution. That’s a good thing. It lets your class develop with each level the way it was intended and doesn’t penalize the player for not having the optimal solution.
Regarding skill choice, that absolutely is a meaningful choice. We both agree these should be in the game and represent a good way to customize your character. I like the idea of being able to choose which skills I want and how much I want to invest in them. That is the core of build diversity. I do caution the developers not to overpower certain choices within the skill tree so that there becomes an optimal solution. It can happen and it needs to be closely watched, with skills being buffed or nerfed as indicated.
Not really. Why? Because there are a ton more choices with affixes. If we’re sticking with the STR, DEX, INT, VIT concept for the sake of discussion, the linearly scaling parts of those could be “solved.” But, the system becomes more complicated when you add in multipliers: CDR, CHC, CHD, AS, Area Damage, +elemental damage, etc, etc. Now, your optimum solution varies widely based on your build. What weapon do you have? What skills did you choose? Are you stacking for fast, consistent damage, or big AoE hits? Are you spread out over 3 types of elemental damage or did you specialize in one? Are you a glass cannon or a tanky character who gave up damage for survivability? Selecting the stats you want on your gear is very different from allocating attribute points while leveling.
Multipliers are fine as long as they’re constrained. I prefer stats that stack additively and scale linearly as a general rule. It promotes better balance. It also allows multipliers to feel powerful when added to a build because they dramatically change how the math works. It also means these affixes need to be limited in their individual power contribution, balanced against each other so each is a viable alternative to the other, and strictly constrained regarding how many such affixes can roll on your gear. This prevents the Quadfecta problem where the only solution was to stack multipliers because base stats were always a worse choice. D3 doubled down on the stupid by making the +1000% multipliers. I’m in favor of a system where the cumulative effect of all your multipliers would never even approach an order of magnitude power gain, let alone 3-4 orders that completely broke D3’s late game itemization.
Mathematically, I strongly favor a system where your power is calculated by adding all your additive stats, then adding up all your multipliers, then finally multiplying additive times the multiplier. D3 had bonuses that multiplied, then multiplied again and again. This is exponential power gain, not linear, and it breaks games the longer it goes. Blizz is planning at least 1 expansion, and likely several. Each one will add more power systems and more multipliers. I do NOT want to see the return of billion- and trillion-damage hits.
I read your post but I can’t seem to get it.
I play all these same games the complex and simple ones, I can see an upgrade faster than lickety split, and I mean POE, D2, D3, Grim Dawn. My analyzation takes hardly any time and I don’t need little green arrows. So I don’t see why the game needs to be over simplified.
I’d go in this even step further, if there is such a thing (a best build that everyone says is “meta”) it should get nerfed, PERIOD… Like not even bothered for a second, the moment something becomes “the norm” should get nerfed (and vice versa, the moment something gets completely disqualified should get buffed also)
People should not feel punished by playing the way how they want to play or feel dumb by not following some “guildelines” or “meta builds” on sites or “missing out” some information not to take a certain skill or talent or whatever. Sure there might be best builds for certain types of runes but overall there shouldn’t be such a thing tbh
I’d also argue even a step above that. That the game would be in a good release-spot when the worst build should isn’t not viable anymore, i.e. not than 3 times worse than the best build that everyone says “dumb if not do”
There shouldn’t be things like “don’t take that spell it’s thrash” (yes looking at you Firewall, Bonewall, and even Weaken :P), kind of stuff also
How ? Skills suffer very similar issues in D2 with only a few optimum ways to distribute them.
Also, you keep repeating there is only one way to spend Attributes in D2, but that’s not true. For instance, Energy Shield Sorceress will invest much more into Energy than others.
Isn’t that a scenario were you would be enticed to invest in different Attributes (Intelligence or Vitality) ?
In D2 the problem was infinite potion healing that required very high monster damage to keep the game challenging, and so forced players to invest as much as possible in the only defensive attribute available (Vitality). You take that healing problem out, it opens more options.
But we’re not. There would be no point to bring back the broken D2 Attributes, nobody is advocating for this.
I used something else (CDR and Energy costs) as an example to show you Attributes can be meaningful for different builds. What about the ADA Blizzard is adding ? No to mention the many tools that can help forging a balanced system like breaking points, diminishing returns, hard caps, skills synergy etc. Even the D4 ADA requirements for affixes can serve as a way to create more choices with items.
I’m backing you on this. I really hope that’s how Blizzard intend to make the system work.
It is pretty close to being one right choice only. A few exceptions do not save the system.
Yeah, that is indeed a major issue in D2, and to be fair, a major issue in D3, POE, and more or less all other A-RPGs ever, since for some inexplicable reason, devs keep repeating the same mistake when it comes to the arms race between dmg and healing. Can only wish they manage to not go down that path in D4.
Yeah, imo we need to move away from tthe idea of having 1 attribute that increases offense, another that increases defense etc.
Each attribute should increase offense in some way, increase defense in some way.
I like that about the ADA powers.
I mentioned that I like Pillars of Eternitys attribute system. Unlike many CRPGs (like D&D) it imo avoids making it so each class/build always want to focus on 1-2 specific stats (like a Wizard always going Int etc, or warrior always going Str)
Might +3% Damage and Healing, +2 Fortitude
Constitution +5% Endurance and Health, +2 Fortitude
Dexterity +3% Attack Speed, +2 Reflex
Perception +3 Interrupt, +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex
Intellect +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +2 Will
Resolve +3 Concentration, +1 Deflection, +2 Will
(Deflection, Fortitude, Reflex, Will are defensive stats. Like defense against physical, magical and ranged attacks or similar)
(Interrupt/Concentration is chance to interrupt someones spellcasting or defend against such interrupts, not very relevant for Diablo)
Now, it does have a direct damage attribute in Might, and two directly defensive attributes in Constitution and resolve. The purely defensive attributes shouldn’t exist in D4.
But all attributes have a defensive stat, and most of them have an offensive one:
Dex with attack speed of course, Perception with accuracy, as in chance to hit. Very important DPS stat in that game, but of course not relevant for D4.
Intellect with increasing AOE radius (I’d love to see that in D4 - a better way to scale AoE instead of increasing its damage imo, reducing the risk that we just AoE everything down D3 style)
Anyway, if you want to make an offensive build, the same overall build (the skill used) could focus on Might, Dex or Perception and achieve somewhat similar results (but be different by wanting to use different gear, and be better/worse against different enemies). Or go for Intellect and receive quite different, but not less effective, results.
Translated to Diablo it could be stuff like:
Str: Increase single target dmg, chance to stun targets, physical resistance
Dex: increase attack speed, dodge and block chance
Int: Increase aoe radius (not dmg), elemental resistance
Wis: Increase damage over time, Pierce enemies resistance, reduce debuff/CC duration
(not using the ADA powers here, since they could work just fine alongside an attribute system, as affixes only. But if not, they could be added obviously - with proc chance, buff duration, debuff duration respectively).
Yes, it was just an example to show it can be relevant if synergies with skills (or talents, affixes…) are thought upstream. As it is, D2 system is irredeemable.
I have to disagree on that for D3, but anyway the solution is quite simple : no Vitality or any defensive Attribute. ^^ Or, as you’re saying, every Attribute also has a secondary defensive effect, that’s PoE choice which is the undeniable evidence it can work.
I like the way you tackle on the problem. All Attributes should :
Increase Damage somehow
Increase Protection somehow
Be useful to any character class
And as I said earlier it has to synergize with other systems : skills and/or talents and/or affixes.
So maybe :
+Attack and Defence
+Skill Damage and Resistance Cap
+Cooldown Reduction
+Offensive and Defensive Effects
… and there are many more variables like the ones you suggested.
Fortunately, Blizzard seems to have the same reasoning with ADA. Let’s hope it will flourish into something more interesting…
crity dmg and crit chance is part of the gear that allow2s the players to have just that little bit more customization it may seem kinda of diffrent to say that but for example some ppl might build towards a diffrent skill then what is commen and stack crit dmg to make up for the diffrence in skill dmg or stack crit hit chance to maintain higher dmg in harder fights a good example might be maybe ppl wanna build a dh grenade build over multi or shadow power and crit dmg and chance can alllow that to a digree (d3 examples)./
adding things to the game is a way to build. diffrent style of builds but if u remove things then ur not adding to the game skill development ur removing from it or maintaning the same skill development just changing the aspec in witch ur doing i know even now ppl are thinking i could have a high crit dmg and demonic build or high angelic build with high crit chance
keeping the crit chance and dmg multipliers have always been a way for diablo to allow some variation in high lvl builds and removing it would be a mistake.
with all the uncerteny on how players are going to get gear how they are going to farm top end gear with out this becoming WORLD OF WARCRAFT open world is great but it is also a risky move for them to do so removing even more of the older game aspects like crit dmg % and chance % u might start making to many changes to the game and lose ur fan base alot of the main stay d3 players were d2 players and are hoping for a change in the game that doesn’t remove the class diablo feel were u don’t need multiplayer to get anywhere and u dont need to have a full party to get somewere.
crit dmg and chance is what allows for solo players to get to higher content (d3) rifts u can compete in some fashion as a solo plauyer in gr higher rifts if u stack ur crit chance or even just crit dmg
removing that and solo could never compete with a 2 p or 3p or 4p group and thus it would ruin the solo play so instead of removing something that is old school and removing things cause ppl can group up maybe just add new things with out removing the old it is already open world it is going to have new gear features so why remove the old gear features all i see is diablo fallowing suit as world of warcraft were they remove old states to add new then remove the new to not put new back in or old back in so i sugest not removing the crit chance or dmg and staying the way u are and developing the new stats and keeping the old
ppl are asking for more item customization so removing some of the states on items will reduce the customization so removing things would reduce that and be contradictory to what everyone is crying for
It allows groups to go higher just as much as solo, so removing it would not really have any impact on that balance.
You can remove things and create more customization that way.
Not that I think crit dmg should be removed. But if it cant be balanced, then removing it is better, and would allow for more item customization.
