The final Boss in the best RPGs EVER MADE:
Chrono Trigger: 1000 health
Baldur’s Gate 2: 96 health (!!!)
Pokemon Yellow: ~160
Secret of Mana: 9990
…
Diablo 2: Baal, Normal, 26 500 health … and that’s with the inflated numbers Diablo 2 already has, at least 6 times too high, as evidenced by the PvP multiplier.
The others are JRPGS and WoW
NONE of them are ARPG, where power progression, damage scaling, loot focus games are the main core of the games, not just part of the game.
Baldurs gate uses D&D pen/paper rules that were meant to be played without a calculator/computer, so the Math must be simple (mostly addition & subtraction) which limits the number scaling.
Context/perspective.
I understand your point, but it’s a poor example, power creep in comics, especially in Marvel is a very real thing.
I never said anything about Marvel. just specifically Spider-Man. I am neither fanboy of Manga or Comic. I am just using 2 comics as examples.
Spiderman is Marvel, and he has had a significant increase in powers over the years. At the start his limits was lifting an average car, in later he tosses a tank, so that’s what a 50 times increase?
And as pointed out, Spiderman is a bad example since he us one of the strongest heroes in the Marvel universe. Iron Man or Batman would have been a better example as they are physically weak compared to most heroes and their enemies but they devise plans and gadgets to defeat them.
Which is nearly nothing compared to the power scaling in many A-RPGs.
If we got 50x scaling from lvl 1 to 50 in Diablo 4, that would be fairly decent.
Definitely.
Those are not good mechanics tbh. If players cant rely on their defenses, those defenses start to not matter at all. Especially in HC. Then it just becomes HP stacking as the only reliable defense.
Better to just keep the scaling manageable, instead of adding “whoops, scaling got out of hand, so here is some mechanisms that ignores the scaling”.
I like big numbers myself. Disgaea is actually one of my favorite games ever, and it’s built around astronomical numbers that makes D3 feel modest. The only reason why I don’t think that’s gonna work in D4 is because they claim that they want PvP in that game. So either they make the game work completely different in PvP than it does in PvE (some games choose that route) or they’re gonna have to cap those numbers or at least flatten the curve.
Now you’re comparing apples and oranges. The numbers might increase that much, but not the relative power. Numbers are insignificant, what they represent matter. Going from doing 10 damage on a 100 hp enemy to doing 500 damage to a 5000 hp enemy has not increased your power at all, although the numbers have increased 50 fold.
I assume Spidermans power has not increased at all either then, since the enemies/plots/whatever he is up against likely increased as much or more.
Anyway, your power clearly has increased if you go from 10 dmg to 500 dmg. That is what allows you to go up against those 5000 HP enemies instead of only the 100 hp enemies.
Spidermans usual fare is ordinary street thugs. So yes, his relative power has skyrocketed.
I did specify “relative power”, which is the only power that matters.
So, I wont claim to know much about Spiderman or Marvel stuff in general (though I did play the Spiderman game a few years ago), but afaik there is always some eeeviiiiil super villain behind everything. Or it would be a short story.
Your relative power still went up. Those 100 HP enemies still have 100 HP. Your power gain allowed you to progress, which is the opposite of your relative power being static.
The alternative would be if the 100 HP enemy gained power as you did.
While I’m not sure how D4 will handle it, that is exactly how D3 works. The enemies scale with you.
A quick googling seem to indicate that scaling will be a thing in D4 as well.
This argument of course is about leveling, since you specified 1-50.
Yes, the reason most builds do not care about defense in D2, as it is poorly designed (base on tabletop games) which doesn’t work as well in a non turn base game
It only chances not to be hit, you have to have a very high defense for it to actually matter, Not only that, it applies only to physical attacks, & defense goes to zero when running. So most builds Just go for more HP.
Same with PoE, Armor is mostly useless, on armors, works only with physical attacks, reduce damage by fixed number (not %), hence do not scale well with high-level mobs with huge damage per hit. Also, did I tell you it works only on physical damage?
Better just go for high hp (works for all damage sources) or go for energy shield which is Hp with a different color.
I actually like how armor works in D3. It’s useful, & worked as intended (more armor more DR against all), & an additional layer together with DR% & resistance, & easy to understand. Just a shame not a lot of skills/stats boosted armor.
The point I am making is, you can make an arpg keep engaging without induce power creep. Something like seaonal only gimmick like soul shard or ethereals are actually pretty good as long as they do not carry over like what happened to PoE.
Have a unique story every season that play over the course of a season. Something like fortnite where the world evolve over a season, so image the loot.
This. I’d definitely play a season theme like for example where all uniques, legendaries, and even rare items suddenly disappeared ))
In D1 even white items were good and usable for actual fight. We need go back to that and make alternatives of how the combat works at the very base. At least temporarily (seasons).
Yeah, well, no. Let’s not do that again. We all know how it feels to randomly miss an attack.
Now I agree with the idea of more tactical upgrades than just number increases, but an artificial rating system is just like playing cat and mouse, where one is always trying to keep up with the others. It’s actually very similar to some kind of parallel power creep where numbers can become huge.
Imo the right way to do this is a chance to add an effect, like chilling, stunning or culling. Which is something D4 is actually doing with its “hit effects” affixes.
Last time I played PoE Armor was working in %, and it was a very desirable stat as most enemies deal physical damage.
But yes, D2 handled it pretty badly, and for the sake of simplicity I prefer the D3 and D4 method of a universal damage reducing stat… as long as it’s the only stat working this way, unlike D3.
I am fine with having unreliable defensive mechanisms such as dodge, as long as it is it optional choices on top of the base defensive choices; HP, resistances, armor.
So, dodge as an optional thing you can go for; fine. Dodge that some classes have to rely on; bad.
If there any kinds of resistance or armor penetrations they should be kept pretty small. To the point where it might just not exist. Instead of penetrating 10% of your resistance, the enemy can just deal more dmg. Something like 100% resistance penetration should not exist.
My only problem with armor and resistance both offering % dmg reduction is that fill the same role then. Which seems pointless.
So maybe keep resistances as purely % based against different dmg types (including physical resist) and importantly, get rid of all resist, so you have to actively go for each resistance.
And then make Armor do something different.
Maybe low effect against magical attacks, but high effect against low dmg hits, and low effect against high dmg hit. Essentially, instead of reducing % dmg, it reduces absolute dmg numbers. A very simple example could be; you have 5000 armor, and an enemy hits you for 8000; then 8000-5000 = 3000 dmg goes through (with a limit to efficiency that means you cant prevent more than 80% of the dmg - similar to how resistances should have some cap around 70-80% - imo a normal cap at 70%-75%, and the ability to go above normal cap through special affixes from uniques/legendaries, up to max 80-85% - armor could likewise have special affixes that allowed you to go a bit above the normal 80% cap).
Like; someone attacks you with a dagger; your very high armor value prevents 80% of the dmg.
Someone attacks you with a huge 2handed mace; your armor prevents 30% of the dmg. Just isn’t very effective vs. a weapon that can crush you like a bug.
Someone attacks you with a fire arrow; your armor prevents 80% of the dmg (still a non-magic attack, with a small weapon, similar to a dagger, even with the elemental effect); while against a magical fireball; your armor prevents 20% of the dmg, since the attack is mostly magical (with a bit of kinetic dmg mixed in, which the armor helps against).
If that is too complex for D4 (for some reason), then dont have any physical resistance stat at all, and just let Armor be % physical dmg reduction, and resistances be for elemental, poison etc.
Agreed. I am fine with hit chance in CRPGs, but in an A-RPG, misses should be actual misses; like you aimed your fireball badly, or the monster leaped out of the AoE etc. Not roll-based.
Well, and of course dodges, those are still fine. They are still roll-based, but without affixes to prevent it, so no player attack rating/hit rating, which is what we should not have. Dodge should not be used frequently. Most enemies should have 0% dodge, but we could have some unique enemies, or elite affixes, that gives monsters a dodge chance. To make it more interesting than just a generic chance to miss (which kinda just translates to increasing their HP), how about 2 types of monster dodges; Dodge vs. Single target attacks and Dodge vs. AoE. Encouraging the players to change which attacks they are using against enemies with these two dodge types.
PoE armor does not work in percentage, unless hey change it after I stopped playing like 6 months ago or something.
In the stat windows , it’s give approximate %damage. It’s a bit misleading. I thought it gave armor as percentage until I realizes it wasn’t when some gurus discuss a our Defence said in a video or something.
The flash threat give -15% physical damage reduction does give the % damage reduction it states which is why it was a good flask which many uses to deal with physical damage.
I am on a phone. I get back to a link to how armor works in PoE when I am back on my pc.
Absolutely. Dodge has to be a secondary defensive stat, unlike Armour, Resistances and Health which are mandatory. It’s a more tactical choice, same as Reduced Damage from Elites or Reduced Duration of Control.
And to make Dodge more interesting, there can be affixes that add interesting effects when dodging, like Healing or short Increased Speed.
Ideed.
It’s also not very interesting as an affix. Armour/Defence is a base item stat so it’s ok piling them through the ceiling, but doing that with everything doesn’t make itemisation interesting. That was D3’s sin.
Yeah, I just checked it out it’s much more complicated than a simple %Damage Reduction like in D3, as its effects depends on the importance of the attack.
In the end it does work as a % reduction but relative to how much damage is applied.
https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Armour/math