[D4] Cooldown-system suggestion

I’m not one to decry “appeal to authority” in all cases, but if we’re talking about the quest designers responsible for what happened to poor Old Blanchy in Cataclysm, I will full auto rapid fire clock slap that appeal into next week. What might have been a good bit of heartfelt pathos, traded for a lame gimmicky meme moment, and unfunny at that. Boo! It just goes to show, whether you have devs who actually know what they’re doing or not, if what they’re doing is jacking off, knowingly or not the result is the same.

Well I thought of another criteria for HR. Any member of the creative team who thought that Blanchy’s fate in cata was peak comedy instead of a shameful disgrace, terminate their employment immediately!

Proving the point again. No points. Just “i am on the side of the established force so i right”

There are those who respect force and nothing else. So let them pay no heed to “the long arc of justice”, because kowtows who hold no allegiance except to whoever is winning at the present moment, are useless or worse.

The whole “If you dont like X, just make your own” is such an absurd concept in general.

“If you are don’t like that a country killing its citizens, just make your own country”
“If you don’t like that a children toy company adds poisonous chemicals in the toys, just make your own toy company”
(no comparison in severity of course)

It is one step away (barely) from the good old “Yet you participate in society :crazy_face:

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Whatever, I’ll contend on whatever turf people want, however much they want to change the topic. It’s interesting to find-out what part of my argument is considered a “weak gap” worthy of a surgical strike.

If only solid mechanics alone could deliver game sales into the favorable end of the pareto distrubution. But that ship may have sailed long ago. Games today are valued as much as a social commodity as they are a means to personal entertainment, puzzle solving, mechanical skill, etc. To them a greater user count is more valuable than having a game worth practicing & improving, and to each their own. What I don’t get it how can players who are so apathetic about the skill ceiling of their game, be opinionated as hell about not introducing a higher one. What the hell is that about. How many of these people played D2 to death out of compulsion and now hate it, because they only scratched the surface despite having full BiS, knowing full well there was no “real” point to the gear except pvp. These people had their way with D3 and now they’re ready to jump ship, and tell me that’s not a perfect allegory for the great california exodus to texas, so they can have a whole other place to ruin and subsequently abandon. Ah whatever.

tl;dr Don’t listen to people who think endless baal runs was peak Diablo for its time. Say, where have I heard that talking point before? It would seem that the irony has come full circle today, and make no mistake, projective fanbois former or current will be sniffed out.

Its pretty funny indeed. Its clear that they cant control their feelings and just spit out random stuff. Like anyone care about emotional reasons.

Sadly they know they not that great and thats why they didnt even try. They shout at other so they can feel better about themselves. Even though they didnt achieve anything in life and just being pathetic.

Just like the ppl who said they werent gonna buy d3 because of no offline mode and still ended up buying it and now complain about how d4 wont have offline mode. Some ppl rly are true clowns.

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So, a random idea about shared cooldowns, to better simulate the strengths of having resource costs, where using one skill has an impact on your ability to use another skill.

Let’s say a 10% of a cooldown on a skill is added as a global cooldown to other skills of the same category. For example the three categories; Basic, Core&Ultimate (insofar as Ultimates exist, when they should not), and Defensive/Mobility.
Like, using an ultimate with a 60 sec cooldown (which of course should not exist, but just as an example) triggers a 6 sec cooldown on all other Core and Ultimate skills. Using Teleport with an 11 sec cooldown triggers a short 1.1 sec cooldown on all other defensive and mobility skills.
That way, you would have to think a bit more on how and when you used a cooldown skill.

On the negative side, that would be adding more cooldowns to the game :stuck_out_tongue: Although, only when using cooldown skills.

I mean sure that’s a system that in a way is used in sacred (i think it’s 100% tho) but like…there’s already a system xD in sacred that’s the only system xD so it’s acceptable but still inferior to resources because you can never just empty your wallet on purpose

Agreed. Resource costs should still be the primary cost of skills, with less than 25% of all skills having a CD by default (often removable through the skill tree), and many of those CD skills also having a resource cost.
This would just add a bit extra to better balance the tactical usage of cooldown skills, making it feel more consequential to use each of those skill at any given time.

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Are you aware that “the emperor wears no clothes” at Blizzard, or have you been under a rock since 2019… Blizzard lost some major talent (not to mention dedication) and the current product pipeline is finally reflecting that brain drain full bear, for everyone who can’t or won’t see five minutes in front of them.

Film critics may not know how to make a great film, and maybe they do, but good critics know the making of a great film. Don’t fix what isn’t broke about D2 and there will be no backlash from some imaginary mouth-breather demographic, quite to the contrary there will be slow-burning renewed interest in delving deep, for reasons of personal mastery and not only endless loot-tier-get.

If the former guard at ATVI were half as great as they believed, D3 would be flourishing today with D4 around the corner. So much for their expert opinions? So where are they now? And what makes you think the new guard is vastly overshadowing the qualifications of legions of decades-long players? HR’s knack for picking the winners? Hmm! In any case, the devs seem more humble & less eager toward dogma & presuppositions, they seem to understand that even a master never really stops learning.

Besides, are you not great after all? What happened to your main account? But I wonder how great you think I think I am.

I might buy the base game just as a show of support for the team leads because they look cool.

…And where would OW be without Tracer’s multiple blinks that you can use all at once if you want (horror of horrors?)… She freaking carries that game, for operating precisely as described here, being an action game character. With aside from her ult, using but a single attack (!) not even a primary attack but the only attack, and people play with that primary attack for hours, even with minimal or no tangible reward track yes it’s true.

To think that without timers, devs are incapable of avoiding a “one trick” meta shows a lack of confidence in their ability. So are they great or not?

Cooldowns exist on two or three different reasons in an isometric ARPG;

  1. Inducing dynamic combat; a fight or flight response from the player. Yes, you will ring around the rosey when you exhausted your death laser. You can always get a second death laser or more choices to damage the horde when you are down. Alternatively, you buff yourself so nothing endures that death laser and survives.

When you are on cooldown on one skill, you still have to cast your defenses up, crowd control so you can at least slow the process of getting overwhelmed or push a few buttons to change position at will. While you are at it, you can easily include another attack skill, such as a basic attack skill next to your main damage dealer as an utility or legit alternative.

  1. Balance reasons and keeping build diversity. Some abilities are just allowing players to make game breaking combinations or skip the content that is laid for them to experience; creating an unseen gate for players that don’t possess that ability.

If skill-x and skill-y is the best combination without any cooldown, offering minimal effort when clearing content, then; you include a cooldown or charge somewhere to limit their use. This way player wouldn’t pick the effortless way or game breaking combination over others, creating an army of look-a-like builds, making any other option obsolete.

In before you claim same thing is already happening; no. Just no. Stop clowning for it.
Sets in Diablo 3 diverse the builds even though, their skill options are largely pre-determined by the Sets they’re using, the utility they have from side items allow them to diverse slightly.
Synergy system in Diablo 2 diverse the builds’ power and their limits even though they look like the same build; they don’t play same. In Diablo 1, we have distinct class identities restricted by stat requirement and thresholds and that solved half of the issue of skill books being available to everyone.

Each installment came with their own solution to the matter, but cooldowns are convenient because they induce dynamic combat also simple way to diverse the builds. In case you don’t like cooldowns, you at least have to agree with one of the other two. Even then, Diablo 1, 2 and 3, are not really sharing the same ideologies or the design pillars. You can not demand game to be something else half way unless you are delusional or against Blizzard to the point of spite.

Also there’s the reason of limiting the traffic between millions of clients mashing buttons at the same time and the servers trying to process this, but I guess you don’t take it as a valid reason. When server processing position checks or demand lists of entities to check for collision, these can be rather heavy on the resources of server, so skills that demand this information has their frequency of usage be limited in some way. That is regardless of how much you despise cooldowns.

Taking this fact to multiply it to the amplitude of millions of players are just accepting a disaster where customers leave the game in frustration and never return; nor buy another product from your company again because they will expect it to be an unstable mess like before. Admit it; customer profile of 20 years ago and today doesn’t match in the least and as I always said, servers don’t run on water, magic or social media likes.

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found the problem. solve it and don’t search for cheap band-aid fixes.

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Then that solution is synergy system like in Diablo 2 to incline player to have alternatives to that or have a very restrictive class identity next to it. Even then it might not work properly, it all depends on small details at the design.

the solution is that skills have a purpose other than
“big damage big cooldown”
“not so big damage less cooldown”
“small damage no cooldown”

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There’s no reason to have CDs for that.

That can be achived without CD. If skills are mening full enough people will use them, no matter what.

Limiting use can be done by “only” adding RC. Because as there were no back up system for skill spaming in D3, theres is no back up system for skill spaming in D4 also.

Finaly someone said something logical on the side of cool downs.

Nah, that was the king of all band-aids, and a really bad one.
It didnt incentivize using multiple skills, it only incentivized placing skill points in multiple skills. And worse, in a pre-determined subset of skills. Effectively making it the D2 version of D3 Set items.

Indeed.
Give each skill a purpose.
Give each enemy a purpose.
Heck, give each enemy attack and passive a purpose.

Kinda like with the itemization, each individual skill should be the best. At something.

Now, balancing is hard, and you likely wont get to the point where every single skill is best (which also remains true with cooldowns), but it should be the design goal.

If that’s the case, either you wouldn’t be able to replenish your resources fast enough because that would go against the intention. In return that would slow the game pace and combat, making it somewhat dull.
In case you go ahead and create high resource replenishing abilities then this design point would make these abilities stand way above others; limiting build diversity. This is why we have mana potions in Diablo 2 and none in Diablo 3.

By difficulty of content, player has to feel a struggle or funnel through some challenge regardless of the system. Pre-determined set of skills has their own unique challenges and flows that offer a ratio between effort-risk stakes at the player’s choice.
These three models just worked before and it seems they favor the last bit more.

We allread have have generators that replenish good amounts of resource. Not too much, not too few.

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That requires commitment to replenish resources and you have to drop your main damage dealer to do so or have specific buffs as resource batteries which takes space at your action bar.

Funny thing is, Diablo 2 DID do something that encouraged players to use more different skills; Immunities!
It was just a bad idea overall. But it can be an effective one (if you didn’t add affixes that circumvented the immunities, or gave some classes a dmg type with very little immunity).

The better version however, would be to give all monsters (on higher difficulties at least) some significant amount of dmg type resistances.
Voila, now you might want to have 2 dmg types in your build, and not just spam one skill.
Together with all the other solutions which have been explained in this thread.

Again, I am not saying these solutions should result in zero cooldown skills, I am saying, get the foundations right, design a game where all skills aim to be best at something, a system where you NEED multiple different attacks to be efficient against the different enemy types and enemy affixes. THEN, when the basics are implemented, you can look at adding cooldowns to skills
Aka. add cooldowns for the skill diversity they offer, and not as a misguided band-aid to a different design issue.

Hey, that doesn’t count! Only cooldowns count!

That… literally is the point? :thinking:

Seriously… these people…
A: “You can’t balance without cooldowns!”
B: “Sure you can, just do X, and Y, and Z, and…”
A: But… that would be balancing, so it doesn’t count!"

:woman_facepalming: