Disagree with this. Thereās simply no reason what so ever to be against proper rewarding if the task was challenging. IN FACT itās what thrives people to do better in next stages/phases of the game
The ONLY thing that would feel ābadā for someone by being rewarded from completing (main/side) quests is probably someone that would rather farm a place all day in order to get a drop. Something like letās say farming the Countess time and time again (in D2) or the āFields of miseryā run that was a thing for a while (in D3)
I mean, defeating an Act boss (especially if challenging) should be a good/impactful (potentially even bit of easening) for at least the next couple/few levels of gameplay rly
And at the end of days I DO think that even in D2 defeating act bosses was also quite a bit of experience. It was just that you didnāt quite notice cause there wasnāt a screen with all those āyou gained this and this and this, click to collect your reward/sā kind of thing
Thatās quiteā¦ interesting viewpoint, didnāt realize that people would still play campaign-stuff after finished the leveling, but u might be right about this
I have not given lots of thoughts about it though. But I like the idea that quests gives horizontal depth to the content that can be useful at any level.
I think in particular of the cube, rune quest, the imbue quest and the socket quest of d2.
My thoughts exactly. Something about the trailer doesnāt fit the vibe of Diablo, and it is this.
Everyone is talking like they are teenagers from 2019. It feels like they are not carrying any burden with regards to their survival and the situation they are in.
They are too light.
I think the ending is better.
The part where the bald guy talks - this is perfect - his words have weight to them
The part where Lilith descends down - this is perfect - made perfect again by the bald guy and how he addresses her
Every other character here seems out of place to varying degrees, by the way they talk and behave.
They are too overt about everything. Everything is in your face, exaggerated in the wrong direction.
At first glance Lilith herself appeared like a super model wearing a headdress. Her face is a little too perfect. Introducing some asymmetry will make her appear more grounded in reality.
i am not saying to make her ugly. She is the mother of all. She should be beautiful and at the same time repugnant.
He says -
You think me mad old friend?
But I know these dreams, they tell of the futureā¦
Hell is coming brotherā¦
hell is comingā¦
I think itās fine. He is trying to convince his friend that Diablo is returning in the near future.
In medieval period they actually talked like that. At least in medieval India they did. I have studied the writings so I know.
How else could he say the same lines?
Letās provide some examples that fit the vibe better.
Fighting Animations
I watched the trailer again -
While watching, I kept thinking - they should study fighting styles of vikings and medieval times to understand how to animate the Barbarian.
His movement seems kind of out of place, in this world. He needs to move like an actual medieval or viking era warrior but with some exaggeration in the right areas to amplify the strength behind the movement.
Like the Developers of the cartoon - Avatar the last airbender - the D4 Devs need to dig their feet deep into the Viking era, the medieval periods of Europe, Middle-East and India, to understand how their game should -
look
animate
sound
feel
The UI should have the same vibe as the rest of the game.
Currently the UI feels modern whereas the rest of the game behind it feels medieval.
Many people see all this as nitpicks. But it really helps to root your game in a consistent time-period, not to make it a āhistorically accurate medieval europe simulatorā but to actually return to the period that the older games D1 and D2 were set in.
The point is not to be historically accurate but to return to the style of D1 and D2.
Use those things as reference which D1 and D2 use as reference.
Olbat, please provide some examples of medieval art that contrasts what the Devs have right now.
Why does this statue feel out of place to you in this game?
Certainly statues were part of medieval period. Why is this off?
Please provide some examples of medieval statues and how they could fit in the scene.
Big Monsters
Yea the boss does give the pacific rim vibe.
But what about the kraken or hydra? Certainly big monsters are not out of the question entirely.
I think bigness is not the issue here. Certainly there can be a big monster.
But if bigness is -
Overdone - itās everywhere, every world boss is a giant monster
Done incorrectly - in the wrong art style and using the wrong inspirations
Bigness is not a thing in Diablo 1 and 2, where Bosses are the size of humans, or slightly larger. So already we are deviating from the vibe of older games, and changing the feeling of dread to awe.
With big things, we feel awe. Like looking at elephants and giraffes. Itās a feel of awe.
But tigers and lions, they create a feeling of dread. Notice how the predators are very much similar to our size.
So anything that is scary if you make it too big, then the emotion goes from fear to awe.
Because awe and fear are closely related, but one is a positive feeling the other is a negative one. We want to inspire the negative feeling so triggering awe in the process of that, isnāt good, as it converts the feeling to a positive one.
So this interplay between feelings and their triggers must be kept in mind.
Generally, bigness triggers the feeling of awe and wonder. But it depends on how it is executed.
1. Big and Hidden
Bigness when it is kept out of view can work well.
_
Iāll give an example, from Diablo 2. There is this monster in the water, in Act 3, and when you fight it, all you see is itās tiny head and tentacles. Itās body is hidden.
_
There can be a world boss like this that is underground or underwater, largely hidden from you, but with small elements creeping around.
There is another monster
2. Big and Disgusting
Bigness when it also taps into disgust can work well.
_
An example from the D4 gameplay trailer itself is Duriel. This size and the way he looks works well.
_
The maggots from act 2, also.
3. Big and Hairy
Bigness combined with with hair can work well.
_
An example is the Yeti from D2 act 1.
4. Big and scaly
You have to be very careful with this one because big and scaly indicates dinosaurs and dragons and so it mostly inspires awe.
_
Dinosaurs and Dragons - two things Diablo should stay far away from.
_
I would place the D4 world boss in this category. It feels like a fantasy dinosaur and does not really give the feeling of dread but is leaning more towards awe.
_
This monster does not have to be scrapped. He may work a lot better if kept outside of the playerās view.
5. Big and Woody
Solid point.
Good point.
What can be the alternative to treasure goblins?
The reason why treasure goblins are in the game is to give the player a target, which if they kill within the timer, will yield make good drops.
When you see a treasure goblin in Diablo 3 you get a rush of excitement and you want to head over and kill him for the loot.
How can this concept be translated into a medieval Diablo 1/2 vibe?
I have never seen any goblins in Diablo 2.
If something feels staged, it will ruin the vibe of the game.
I remember in Diablo 2, the ghosts were never human-looking. They looked like weird and wicked ethereal beings. They were always a negative force that player had to fight.
What is the alternative to this?
You mean the screen where you select heroes? Agreed.
The great thing about DIablo 2 is that it felt like a big world but it was always randomly generated.
You could get lost in Act 3 forest, and it had many random elements that encouraged exploration in each play through.
This will be lost if the world is baked in with only dungeons being randomly generated.
Open world is fine but the Devs can make it to Players play on different instances where there are different randomly generated open worlds.
The current UI does not fit the theme that the game wants to achieve.
We dont need to copy-paste D1 and D2 UI, but we do need to understand what D1 and D2 UI are rooted in and root D4ās UI into that same place.
Certainly there will be players who ignore what the NPCs are saying and head straight to try to do the quest. But the game must be designed in a way that it does not step on the toes of those players who do take the time to listen to NPC dialogue and figure out things that way.
So like Olbat is saying the game must not hold your hand too much. This is intended for a Mature audience and so hand-holding elements can be minimized quite a bit.
World Map
I would say it it kills the feeling of ānot-knowingā.
Not knowing the scale of the world.
Not knowing where exactly to go.
Not knowing what we will find there.
Of course it is a game and the Devs have to guide the player towards certain objectives. But this has to be done in subtle ways.
Itās ok for the player to feel lost at times. D2ās Act 3 forests were memorable because we got lost in them. It was a big map, without directions, it was easy to get lost in. This feeling is good when it happens after the player is already familiar with other basics of the game such as items and skills.
I also get that for the Demo, showing the world map was a great way to show people how big the game will be in comparison to the area they were in.
But that feeling of knowing how big the game will be in comparison to the area we are in also kills the feeling of ānot-knowingā as we play the game.
If we can clearly see the edges of the map, we automatically feel it is finite and ālesser-thanā.
In Diablo 2, the world feels huge because there is no reference of a world map in relation to the map we are on. If someone were to draw the world Map of Diablo 2, weād very quickly realize that the world is actually not that big. But it feels big and part of that comes from not having that map.
Certainly in Diablo your way point system becomes your map for navigating the world.
I donāt know how Diablo 4 can accomplish this without way points, and if there are waypoints in the game or planned for it, then I would simply get rid of the world map. As it serves no other purpose than to take away from the feeling of āvastnessā, by containing it in a map, and showing the player how small the world actually is.
The map must reveal itself as a rudimentary drawing as the player progresses.
A detailed map takes away from the vibe. These are not cartographers we are playing as but warriors who are just drawing rudimentary things on paper. Or in their mind, they have a rough idea of where things are.
They are not going to know every little rock and crevice in the world. So these things should be avoided on maps.
Diablo 2 map is great. It gives only the most rudimentary info.
PoE maps is a bit much I would say.
There is a Gameplay Reason for a rudimentary map as well. This is so that the player can overlay the map on their screen and follow it that way.
If the map is too obtrusive, then it becomes an issue. D2 can probably be improved in that regard.
The ability to overlay the map is very important for many players.
Itās not about historical accuracy and creating a āmedieval simulatorā rather is is about the gameplay -
the vibe the the map gives
rooting the game in depressive realism, which is the basis of dark fantasy
the practical applications of a map overlay
There is something really cool about the Diablo 2 inventory system. The items have a lot of weight to them, with their realistic images, different sizes in the inventory, their sounds when you pick them up and place them, and the fact that you have to pick them up and place themā¦ feels like tangible things.
A common counter-argument to this system is that you have to manage your inventory space.
The more small things the player has to manage in the game the better. Especially when those things add to the vibe of the game. Diablo is rooted in realism to a great degree and having to manage inventory space makes sense of this type of game.
It would become cumbersome managing space like this for many items.
The solution there is to not do items the way D3 did them where tons of them dropped and they were all trash.
Managing that with the inventory system of D2 would be a pain. So fewer items is the way to go.
Monsters popping open as pinatas and dropping items like candy does not fit the vibe of a Diablo game.
And they donāt need to do that in order to excite the player.
They can simply explode into their blood and guts, with 1 item and some potions, like in Diablo 2.
Perhaps their blood, guts and bones can be crafting materials?
Devs must study the look and feel of Diablo 2. The game really gives off a solid consistent feeling. The vibe is clear and is in uncluttered.
Sure items have crazy affixes, but thatās necessary.
Most of what we see in D4 item screen is unecessary clutter.
This something I am divided on.
Olbat, why should it be removed?
What are the reasons for this?
UI
Again it must be stated that the UI must really fit the vibe of a Diablo game.
Sometimes too much UI can actually take away from the vibe. Giving too much information can be detrimental.
One thing I noticed immediately was the quest on the right side. We donāt need the game to indicate a quest for us right on our screen. We can open the quest menu to access that information if we need.
This is intrusive UI.
For those players who want to focus on the game world and try to figure out things from within the dialogue and other ques, this type of UI intrudes on their immersion.
For those players who donāt care about that and simply want to run through the world as fast as possible, they can simply open a menu up and click on the quest there to see what they need to do.
Again these things are not about making a āmedieval simulatorā but about allowing the player to immerse themselves in the world if they choose.
By having all these elements on screen like this, it takes away from that.
Give the player options to access this information but do not give it all to us in our face.
E.g.
Remove the clock but allow the player to add it in, if they want.
Even in PoE this looks bad. the Diablo 2 method fits the vibe where the object lights up, as if lit by lamp light or torch light.
Quest rewards should either fit the vibe or be removed. Charsi imbuing an item fits her character and the vibe of the game.
A peasant gives you gold coinsā¦ does not fit.
Again, it must be stressed that this is not to create a ā100% historically accurate medieval simulatorā. It is more about the Vibe that the game is going for and making all elements fit that vibe and enhance it.
Having a unified theme and making this that fit that theme works a lot better.
Like In DIablo 2, your Skill Tree looked like a stone tablet, and when you allotted points it looked like you were pushing a stone button.
This is not historically accurate but it fits the vibe of the game.
Paying attention to detail like this and making sure that such details fit the Vibe of the game is key to immersing the player in your world and making a good Diablo game.
Really study Diablo 2 and how it handles all these things, alongside items, skills and stats, and really dig your feet deep into that game.
The more you study it, the more youāll appreciate how it does things.
There are things you can improve with Diablo 2ās UI, but if they you donāt appreciate it on a fundamental level, maybe you are working on the wrong project.
Notice how their vikings look like Dwarves from Norse cultureā¦Much like Asterix. Donāt really think that drew inspiration to a āBarbarianā, which has no real link to vikings.
The barbarian looks like Conan, like from a middle eastern / southern Russian nomadic culture (Cimmerian) from Greek to pre-Greek times (perhaps some highland inspiration as well).
Also if we were to tend to analyse fighting weapons - the most appropriate wouldnāt be viking as vikings were typically sword and shield. Two likely candidates were highland warriors or Swiss / German mercenaries who used large two handed weapons; Highland claymore / scottish basket-hilted sword, zweihander, maces, axes, poleaxes e.t.c
Shields were also utilised better in group fighting scenarios and with numbers which suggests more civilised military organisation, as opposed to a lone fighter, such as the barbarian. Although from etymology, barbarous indicates any non-greek / non-roman speaking group, in which there were several well organised opposing military factions.
In medieval period they actually talked like that. At least in medieval India they did. I have studied the writings so I know
Good to know that people could talk like this. But does it mean it still should be shown?
About the gameplay video.
I think you mean how the character moves and attacks? itās without progressive acceleration, they cast spells and move swords instantly. (Like if a car starts and move at 100mph instantly)
Just like in pixar movies
Same d3 animated character movements. . I think itās for console reactivity. Itās like at traffic light, your car would starts at 50mps when the light turns green.
It can feel appealing for the first 10 min, but tiring after hours playing, perhaps. Iām not sure yet if itās a good thing or a bad thing. I like the classic and natural way character sweep in d2, But d2 also feels very bizarre at times, d2 barbarianās leap is actually even weirder.
_Many people see all this as nitpicks. But it really helps to root your game in a consistent time-period, not to make it a āhistorically accurate medieval europe simulatorā_Olbat, please provide some examples of medieval art that contrasts what the Devs have right now.
I talk about arts in a large sense, including techniques, architecture, objects etc
Why does this statue feel out of place to you in this game?https://ibb.co/D5K9vMB (I had to reupload al images for unknown reasons)
This type of nudity is either from Renaissance(and later) or from the roman empire. But the RE never really influenced Celtic shores of the North. And definitely not scotland (which they take inspiration from in the Blizz panels)
In the case it was a ruin, it would be broken on the ground in a more latin-looking area of the world.
What can be the alternative to treasure goblins?
This question has to be decided when most of the artstyle and of the basic mechanism is done. Then, they must see whatās missing and take a decision.
I have never seen any goblins in Diablo 2.
You believe you have, high fantasy novels completely modified the image of the goblins.https://tinyurl.com/w2p3wg8
Though Iām not expert in this.
What is the alternative to this? (Cutscences)
I think special quests and actions can be seen in isometric view, if they put enough resources it can look great and part of the gameplay. Cutscenes are not interactive, thatās a problem. If something is not convincing, I would not keep it. And try improve other aspects of the game.
You mean the screen where you select heroes? Agreed.(zooming camera)
Not only. Iām also talking about cutscenes, about the loading screen with the hellfirewindow.
Olbat, why should it be removed? (inventory character)
Because if you already have a visual of your character. Keep every aspect of the UI unique.
Otherwise itās like adding a ID photo on your resume and also the same IDphoto in your cover letter.
Iāll keep a closer look to your other comments when I have time.
I am not saying the game should restrict itself to medieval Europe. Not at all.
If you want to design diverse areas with various cultures, every culture needs to be identifiable. Being more flexible with historical facts actually alters the identity and the uniqueness of an area.
This brings us to a fundamental point, they will struggle to compose a music customised for each area. If the atmosphere of an area is not clearly defined, understandable and identifiable by everyone, the composer wonāt be able to catch the DNA of the area. And the result will be a very generic all-around music.
That is also the reason why the quest system must be reworked because itās unimmersive at best.
Thatās kind of why they had 5 very specific areas in mind for the game, with their own unique themeās / cultures / enemies e.t.c. Have you actually looked through the information for the gameā¦
Medieval Europe also had buildings and ruins from much earlier times.
Definitely, but the only evidence of the product quests weāve seen are from a heavily scripted demo designed for a very singular purpose. We have no idea what retail will look like.
I disagree. The devs can use artistic license and blend components of multiple cultures and time periods to create unique art and music. The blending of cultural sources and with their own twist would be much more unique than, again, rigidly adhering to a medieval European time period or any other cultural time periods. We should not limit the diablo experience to one area, culture, or time period. I would issue with the industrial, post industrial, and modern periods (no smart phones or text messages please). I would even go so far to say that they could stick to the pre-gunpower time periods. This, in my opinion, would be logical/legit unless they decide to take the Grim Dawn route and introduce hand guns and rifles, which I think would be equally awesome if done right. I also donāt expect to hear Run DMC, Rap Music, Rock-N-Roll, The Beatles, Jazz, Johnny Cash, Elvis, or modern US Country Music, in a Diablo game.
I think the opās post is revolutionary in many respects. I love the idea about nobody having an accurate map or even a full map at all. why not start that way with it being filled in once you have mapped it. Or even have a map skill and have it have inaccuracies depending on this.
I love the idea of having quests not to be about money either. Itās a very good point this one. have a person have to do certain activities to get money. from guarding caravans or doing army duty, to breaking into storehouses as a treasure finder ( rogue ) or reading futures or something mystical ( perhaps opening circles to the abyss to rob the ancient vaults there ) The very idea that you would be doing a certain activity to gain money would be quite novel.
I just thought the whole thing was very interesting and I would like to see a game somewhat as this made. Iām not sure they will go down this incredibly authentic route. But I definitely think they could do with some of this mindset.
In d2, the egyptians ruins are damaged and old. They donāt look brand new like the statue in front of the scottish cave where no romans went. Additionally, the ruins are spread across a wide map and feel more natural.
In the demo, it feels like there is a cathedral bell every 200 meters without cathedral stones (the bell looks gorgeous by the way). I know itās a demo, but they will have to lower the density to balance realism.
Of course, the composer must not restrain his instrument options. What I mean it is important to install the composer in good conditions with understandable ideas of mood, atmosphere, showing the right atwork and materials to him. This is why a little mistake in art direction at the start can become more visible and wrong later. Hanz Zimmer explains it well in his making of Gladiator soundtrack (Not saying it HAS to sound like Zimmer, who generally uses big orchestras, but itās interesting to see how he works)
I donāt remember how it was but i agree that things should make some sence. If they put something in the map, there should be a reason why that is there, and if it is an object, like the bell for example, it must come from some place, and why is there (this not always will be obvious but it can be).
