oh no
i stopped playing years ago
i also never used the words “it sucks”…not in this thread
PoE barely has any cooldowns, that are decently long, even on Movement Skills, which kinda is a problem.
As I suggested earlier, for Movement Skills (and maybe even Skills like Wrath of the Berserker or Ignore Pain), Resource Cost Reduction and Cooldown Reduction could only work at maybe 70-80% of their effectiveness on them.
So when you have 50% CDR or RCR, then subtracting 1/5 of that (due to CDR and RCR only working at 80% effectiveness on them), your Movement Skills would only gain 40% CDR or RCR from that.
That means that you can use damage dealing skills and other buffs more often, but Movement Skills would become less spamable, and you eventually could reduce the Base Cooldown and the Base Resource Costs for them a bit to balance it out.
And for skills like Spirit Walk or Steed Charge there also can be the feature that they first start their Cooldown until after their effects have expired.
movement skills are not a problem imo
moving over the map is not the “too fast pace”
its the spaming AoE skills and clearing the whole screen in 5 seconds
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With that I disagree.
If it is too excessive, like it currently is in D3 with some skills, then it is a problem.
It certainly contributes to the fast pace.
With that statement however, I do agree.
The spamming of AoE Skills can and should be mitigated by not having too much Resource Cost Reduction, Resource Re-/Generation and Resource Recovery, as well as not too much Cooldown Reduction in the game.
In D3 it is too easy to nullify the Resource Costs of your AoE skills, and it also is too efficient to do so.
And things like ‘Arcane Power on Critical Hit’ and ‘Fury on Hit’ should not exist in the first place.
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If it gets too bad, there still can be Diminishing Returns on Resource Cost Reduction and Cooldown Reduction, like that any amount of RCR and CDR above 50% is 10% less effective on all skills, any amount of RCR and CDR above 60% is 20% less effective, etc.
Some people may say that this is not be the most elegant solution, but it is doing what it would be supposed to do.
well, soft caps/diminishing returns are not an unusual solution
but if you just cap the “power” level of affixes with not upping the item level with cringe infinite paragon levels, you can easily evade power creep and if someone builds their whole set about regen and cooldown they might zap all over the map (and thats my opinion: you should have the freedom to do so), they wouldnt deal any damage so it kinda doesnt matter
you should have an overall “power cap” and what you input into these limited slots is up to you
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I agree that something like gaining Power from an infinite, uncapped Account-wide Progression System should not exist.
I think there should be an Attribute System in which you can spend points from Character Level 1 to Max Character Level, and if there is an infinite, uncapped account-wide Progression System, it should only reward Cosmetics, Pets or new Music, etc.
That would just incentivize zDpS builds that charge all over the map, pull enemies together and provide beneficial effects to themselves and their party that have a 100% uptime, or at least too much uptime.
Diablo is not a game that is or should have builds that are primarily support classes.
2 Likes
It is also a matter of balancing aoe skills. They deal way too much dmg relative to single target skills.
Bosses and small groups of enemies should laugh in your face if you try to aoe them down. It should be possible of course, to allow for max build diversity, but it should be quite inefficient compared to switching to a single target attack.
I really hope all buffs are personal so there is no such thing as buffing the group in D4.
As for gathering monsters all over the map, just make it so monsters won’t follow you around for long if you move away from their spawn.
Also, have more monster abilities that punish high mobility. Like if you try to kite enemies for too long, make them angry and do nasty things to you. Catch you with a net, or throw a dot on you that deals more dmg the more you move.
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Basically all Single-Target-Skills are Primary / Generator Skills. There are really only a few single target skills that are resource spenders, like Impale or Rapid Fire, that come to my mind.
I think it is a good design to not have Single Target Skills as Resource Spenders, because it would annihilate bosses and thereby create “Boss Killer Builds” like currently in D3.
However, I am very okay with having Resource Spending Skills that only have a smaller AoE, like Hammer of the Ancients, Shield Bash, Bone Spear, Wave of Light (not the rune with large increased Fire AoE that everyone uses), Lashing Tail Kick, Arcane Torrent, etc.
I would like it to see a Barbarian that switches from Hammer of the Ancients to Seismic Slam, depending on the situation: HotA for small groups and bosses, Seismic Slam for larger groups.
That would be weird imo if things like Warcry or Auras would not buff allies as well.
I would simply make it so that group buffs only have 50% / 33% / 25% effectiveness on allies to prevent zDpS builds.
2-3 screens is not that much, but still enough to get a huge pile of enemies together.
Yeah, sure, some monsters should have such abilities, but not too many, as some classes rely on kiting, but in this context kiting is not the same as piling up a large amount of enemies and giving everyone larger amounts of absorb, damage mitigation or damage buffs.
So I would not make these too excessive, but I agree that it would be cool to have enemies with these abilities, almost like that every class or build has a few enemies that for them are like what Burning Souls were for many in D2.
For casters it could be another Mage Enemy that gives you a Curse that when you cast a Spell, you loose xx% of your maximum Life, so that e.g. a Barbarian would not be affected by it because he mostly uses Physical-based Attacks.
Or enemies that deal increased damage against you the further away you are from them (at least with some of their skills), etc.
This is the ARPG where real gamer should play:
Nope.
Nah
It’s the core design of any game that everything that deals damage over an area is always weaker than something of similar cost on a single target
Ask wherever you want
Pokemon, hearthstone, lol, elder scrolls
And having that “boss killer skill” is totally fine with a skillbar that features more than 1 slot xD
No reason they would annihilate bosses as far as I can see. That is just dmg balancing.
Indeed, that is what should happen outside of very rare, specialized builds that manage to focus on pure AoE or pure singletarget/tiny AoE.
Not if you don’t fill the screens with too many enemies 
Hence Too much kiting. Like if it gets too far away from its spawn, or is in combat for too long. Or been in combat for too long without taking much dmg (indicating mob piling rather than kiting).
Another thing monsters should do is change behavior if they are being piled up. Like some of they enrage or empower if more than 5 enemies are brought close together. Heck, give monsters zDPS. 10 enemies together and one of them starts buffing the others with defensive or offensive buffs.
Some monsters should also try to spread out if brought together, to make it impossible to gather them within an AoE spot.
As for some builds relying on kiting, yeah, but that is like some builds relying on fire dmg, etc. Should be perfectly possible to play that way, but it should have inherent strengths and weaknesses.
Like monsters resistant to fire. Or monsters who do not like being kited.
Which will definitely mean a kiting build might struggle with those enemies, but that is fine. They will also have an easier time with other enemies. Having to adjust to those enemies is a major part of achieving better combat.
Yeah!
I don’t really see a problem with kiting as it’s a mechanically harder process than just standing in the middle of a pile of monsters, holding down the whirlwind button^^
Doesn’t seem cheesy to me
I admit that to a certain degree it boils down to a personal preference of mine.
If anything, I would consider skills like Earthquake, Call of the Ancients, WotB, Archon, Akarat’s Champion, Vengeance, and to a lesser degree also Avalanche, Meteor (Molten Impact), Rain of Arrows, etc as Boss Killer abilities.
For me it just does not feel right to have a skill that costs a decent amount of resource, which then does not have an AoE, but again, that is just personal preference.
Yes, that is possible, but if that skill just sits around most of the time and does nothing, it may not be worth it, or too powerful. But it could work, though it would just not feel right for me.
Also, when you fight a group of enemies or the boss is also a summoner then you may have difficulties getting a lock on your actual target. With a skill like Bash or Magic Missile is would not be much of a detriment, but with a single target boss killer ability… I know, a medium large issue at best, but still worth mentioning.
In D3 that obviously also has to do with legendaries and sets only buffing predetermined skills with insane multipliers, so basicaly all builds end up very specialized. And just having 6 Active Skill Slots is an issue as well. 7 would be better in my opinion.
I can see that it makes sense for an enemy by default letting out a War Cry (or maybe the elite version of an enemy can do that), which temporally buffs all nearby enemies.
oof, I actually have never seen such a thing in an actual game.
Yes, there is this mechanic where you get surrounded by 20 enemies and only one of them attacks you at a time, but something like that would be weird in Diablo.
Oh, I would love to see High Resistances in Diablo again. Kiting however is a bit different, since it creates a change in how you approach an enemy, while High Resistances only make the fight last longer if you only use the same element.
Think about that too much CC from enemies gets annoying as well. That is why even high end players complain about affixes like Waller and even Wormhole.
As long as enemies CC is not too excessive, its fine.
Maybe you can elaborate further, briefly.
You should.
- When hypermobility is an option, kiting becomes even easier.
- The easier kiting is (be it through mobility, crowd control, or nuances in pathing around the environment), the less players will invest in defensive gear. (Naked Runs becoming the most egregious example of this imbalance)
- Mob AI is generally too dumb to realize it’s being kited and change tactics to break the behavior.
- All of the dangers melee players have to worry about are frequently a non-factor.
- Mobs generally don’t heal or have access to it as an alternative counter.
As a result, I’m inclined to say that any game where longer term or endless kiting is possible is conceptually too easy. Even if it turns out it takes a half hour to tickle a juicy target to death, it likely means melee players can’t do the same on their own. And having played games where that has happened, let’s just say it breeds community toxicity.
Well it’s situational
If you are having 3 archers on you, all in different directions of the screen, you might wanna deal with them first and 1 single targeted hit is probably more efficient than covering the whole screen in fire when most of the screen is empty xD
But that leads us back to monster and level design in general
If the screen is ALWAYS filled up to the top then it would be your scenario but that is also not what I want to see xD
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When I see all these videos on D3 and PoE, and how extremely fast and overloaded with effects this all is. These are not games we really want to play as ARPGs.
These are sports games with continuous explosions that fill the screen. What is the point of this as a player who is actually looking for an RPG and an immersive game and its world as a focus and can also assume this.
As an RPG player, I don’t see anything appealing in these games. To me they are like watching a car racing game. If I’m looking for an RPG game, then the car racing game is not interesting to me.
When I see these effects thunderstorms and ridiculous speed and how you drive through these mob density as if they are just placeholders to generate points… So that’s just not relevant to me at all. It’s a different genre and meaningless.
I can’t possibly buy Diablo 4 just because it’s called Diablo 4, I think I’m getting an ARPG, but in reality I’m getting a car racing game just to see it transferred.
After all, there can be that kind of game. But rename the genre and make real RPGs and their subgenres like ARPG. But these are completely different from the value of the content than what they want to sell us here.
For me, these videos are rather repulsive when I want to look at an ARPG.
If I want to watch a flurry of effects and number hunting and item grinding and e-sports, then it’s certainly a good choice.
I understand if there are gamers who are looking for just that kind of game. So an end-game comparison game and record hunting, item trading, numbers. So in short a sport and comparison game with a few RPG elements as an addition.
However, if we really want to build an ARPG, then this direction is complete nonsense and not relevant at all.
Here we need completely different standards.
5 Likes
You are not alone
But sadly companies will always go where the majority and the money goes 
Kiting is not a problem. Just like using fire dmg isnt a problem. The game should just challenge anything you might try to do.
It should not sit around not getting used most of the time. You could balance is to it is more efficient to use single target or tiny AoE any time there is less than, lets say 5 enemies in the fight - and sometimes even more, against enemies you cant get into your AoE.
With less monsters on the screen, hopefully having less than 5 enemies in a fight is a fairly frequent occurrence.
AoE Dmg should just be a lot lower than single target dmg, so it mostly shines, when there are a bunch of enemies around.
Sure. I dont see it as a problem though. All abilities should have weaknesses. Against a summoning boss, you might be better off with a small AoE, or a full AoE skill.
Agreed. The game should be designed around the average build having ~3 primary dmg skills, which makes 6 skill slots too low imo.
I dont see any problems with either of those. But you should not be spammed by CC of course.
People complain because D3 has become a speed run sports game, as LordByron said earlier. People are annoyed when anything slows them down by a second. But the problem is the gameplay in D3, not the slowdowns or enemies countering you.
Yeah. The game needs to be able to challenge the players no matter what we do.
And kiting is definitely something that can cause serious balance issues for melee vs. ranged. Though we also see the opposite, of melee being overpowered vs. ranged, due to kiting not being reliable. As always it is a balancing act.
Indeed!
Can’t be the only one that would like to see some Armor/Anti-Armor “shenanigans”/rotations in the game
Not because of depth but rather because gives space for extra player efficiency (i.e. properly executed comboes or perfectly used environment hazards against something…, stuff like that)
Once that’s done then they can increase regular Mob HP and drop down the Elites a little bit cause no longer the elites would be the only problem (especially if monster damage goes up which should be the case)
I’d certainly hope I’m not the only one turned off by having 30 mobs on screen, 2 AoE spells and 3 remain and then fight those 3 virtually forever (like 2-3 mins)…, IDK why but noticed some of the “vanilla” games do this wayy too often for some reason, and D3 did the very same only did it with packs so a bit more “discreetly” 
IN FACT would’ve been better if those 30 were only 10 mobs in the first place and maybe some of them would eventually (or temporarily) summon 10 more in order to do the “filling”, and those 3 would have like 1/3 or half the HP so the “longest single target” battle doesn’t last longer than 30 or so sec… (unless bosses ofc, plethora of “rules” or guidelines there could be broken), but again, just cause a/RPG, doesn’t have to mean that it has to follow or obey “trends” that are out there tbh
In fact would be perfectly satisfied with some “twists” here and there like certain mobs having strong and weak points (they even have the perfect example mobs for such a thing, those drowned with the big wood that gets stuck on the ground, double the damage but make it destructive), or buffs/debuffs/CC being preventable or destructive (in forms of destructive totems or channeled & whatnot instead of just “this dude now does 50% more damage, deal with it” a bit of page from Doom:Eternal maybe 
)
I obviously agree that AoE Skills should - if they have the same resource cost - deal less damage than a smaller AoE skill.
I am just saying that we already have small AoE skills in the game, like HotA, Shield Bash, Lashing Tail Kick, etc, and these do fine as “semi-single target skills”.
If D3’s combat would be slower by default, then getting CC’ed does indeed not feel as bad as when you are in perma-speed mode and suddenly everything just stops. I know this from other games as well, like DOOM Eternal which has a very fast combat pace, and getting stuck on an enemy or a wall feels much more annoying than in other shooters.
But since I play Diablo 3 as a medium pace game (by mostly only playing off-meta LoD builds), I am in general fine when I get CC’ed. I even would like Hit Recovery to return or a Stagger Meter that micro stuns your char when the bar is full.