If that happened you would see EXACTLY the same people now at the top of the leaderboards because you are removing a factor that helps Leaderboards and it all comes down to skill…
A skilled PC player cleared a GR150 with Necro (Wudijo) at P2700 taking 1900 keys to do so…using utter skill…capping paragon means it takes skill to achieve top clears.
The Console leaderboards are generally full of long standing Console D3 players who compete and are like Wudijo in that they are skilled…to remove Paragon and cap it means you simply weed out those who are not skilled and thus proving the exact opposite of what you say…capping paragon means only the skilled players would be at the top.
And Console players who play D3 and are at the top are generally those that play every season.
Your points on Solo and Group are all valid and we all feel the same but it is not a case that “you are in a group, you get high paragon therefore you are less skilled than those who are solo”.
It is not that black and white. Top leaderboard people can be high paragon, low paragon, highly skilled, not so skilled etc.
You seem to make sweeping statements about something and that’s it rather than discuss or acknowledge that what you say may be true in certain groups or areas or apply to some people but not all.
I’m not here to convince you your opinion is wrong but I most certainly will point out your opinion doesn’t apply to EVERYONE like you stated it was.
When someone says you will never convince me otherwise then what is the point in discussing? I discuss all things in life and react and change my opinion when facts come along or things are learnt.
But to say you will never convince me otherwise is an approach flat earthers take and you can’t discuss with people who are not open to differing opinions, why those opinions exist and see if they have any basis.
Quite simply you are wrong to say everyone high on LB’s are there due to high paragon. You are right to say that SOME of those high up in the LB’ are there due to group play and have high paragon and high LG’s.
This season the group play lb’s is determined by Barb skill, the wiz is so powerful you don’t need the 5k paragon or the top notch gear necessarily for a sub 5 4 man or low 2/3 man clears. The skill no longer follows the DPS in group play this season. Bad Barb bad times.
I know enough to know that they all get there by huge paragon from group play and abuse this in solo pushes, killing solo guys from being able to rank higher on the LBs.
Nope. Not convinced.
As to key fishing, that’s not skill, it’s just pure luck. Nothing more and nothing less.
Investing X amount of time in a game is not skill.
Investing X amount of time in anything is the minimum requirement to gain skill. Running GR’s often enough to know as early as possible whether its worth continuing based on map, mob and elite types, affixes, pylon placement and progression etc is a skill, one that can only be learned by repeated fishing.
And there’s nothing stopping anyone from gaining paragon in group play and using it to their advantage in solo pushes. In exactly the same way it’s smart to push with the best build, it’s smart to build your paragon the best way. If you don’t want to play ‘smart’, in either build or paragon, don’t complain about falling behind, because that is completely on you.
Mate you are confusing…on one hand Paragon gives you a massive advantage in going up the leaderboards but capping paragon…ie taking away the very advantage you say helps players climb rank would mean skilled players wouldn’t be at the top?
That’s wonky logic mate…you need to think about it…if paragon gives you the advantage then capping it means capping those players meaning skill shines more.
I don’t see the point in carrying on with this Dave, appreciate your input but your logic ain’t making any sense to me.
But as the title says Cheaters ruin the game for sure.
Wow, you are assuming a lot. You prolly don’t know a lot of “huge paragon” players, so let me tell you what we are going to do if paragon is capped at 2000.
Since 2k para can be achieved in about 2 weeks, there’s nothing to do BUT gear up every class and push every LB, including HC. Top tier players aren’t top tier in the s22, they are top tier for the past 3-4-5 years. Every seasonal buff, every nerf, every new set that gets thrown our way gets quickly dissected and used to our advantage. You think capping para is going to give you a chance? You’re going to have the same 50-60 players on every single LB because they can’t grind para, but they still like to play.
If you think rift fishing is going to help you, think again. We’re going to have “key farming speed meta” so we can blow through 10000 keys until it’s double Battlefields with Vile. Stop living in your bubble, go make few friends.
Double battlefields? Ew gimme a four corner festering followed by another festering.
For the record the first solo 150 done this season betweeen HC and SC was a HC player and was done with 2.4k paragon and about 24k mainstat. If there is any season that paragon actually doesn’t matter for solo if you want a 150 solo this is the season for it. Necro probably gains more with more paragon than the wiz but man. When has there ever been. character that at ~4.5k paragon can open any 150 that starts desert/moors/fields/festering and essentially guarantee a clear. It’s gross and I have a sick feeling the wizard will get another buff because PC players aren’t satisfied. Hopefully nothing to twisters
First gr 150 solo clear on xbox was HC wiz at 2400 paragon by dinosaurd123. He did beat SC to the 150.
@homerjnick and @dpastetn:
I have to agree with homer on his position that most top leaderboard players are indeed skilled players. There are numerous people who appear from time to time who lack skill, and yes it is their paragon and LG’s affording them that ability; however, that is not every player at the top.
I find a large majority of players near the top of the leaderboard are exploiting reforges for perfrct gear, which has nothing to do with paragon or skill.
I personally compete on HC playnging 100% legit, no reforging or save exploiting to bring back a dead character. Most seasons I crush the cheaters, even if they have more paragon than me. The last 3 seasons I had 500-900 paragon less than everyone else in the top 5, yet I still pulled 1st or 2nd. Last season I was beat out by a person who had 700 paragon more than me and full primal gear. That player ran the same gr as I did, just barely faster.
There are top players who can outplay most people, even with a paragon handicap. Most of those players know the character/build/game mechanics far better than most. The ability to utilize that knowledge and execute with near perfect game play takes skill.
Not trying to take anything away from dinosaurd123, but there isn’t a player with that GT anywhere near top50 on SC in any class. You want me to post screenshots?
Unless he’s using different GT, he’s just not there. I can see him all over HC, and he’s obviously a good player but he’s not playing SC.
As far as first solo clear, like I said I don’t follow HC at all, so if you say dino123 did it first, well…great! Everyone on SC missed it.
But, if you think that anyone other than wangjaesin was the first to clear 150 on SC, you are misinformed. I was literally playing that day and checking LB to see if anyone finally did it. I also know exactly what paragon he was because I just need to click on his name on “Friends playing” list to see that.
The game was designed for 1-4 players. Go check the box that it came in. it says it on the box. The big question is, why is Blizzard pandering to groups and screwing solo players?
No. I could spend a thousand hours trying to learn to play the guitar, and I’d still massively suck. Time does not equal skill.
Many players who are ranking, would be screwed without that paragon advantage. There are many players, who lose ranks simply cos we don’t group up and have massive paragon and other unfair advantages from group play in the solo arena. We have more skill, but we get screwed by a badly designed gaming system. It is possible to argue that the current top players would stay top of the pack, but until this scenario actually happens, it’s just a hypothesis. One thing is for absolutely sure - the LBs would get flattened and competition would be MUCH closer.
I sure do like my chances thank you. Whilst my rankings aren’t super great these days (since s6 impale completely sucks compared to GOD for DH, by at least 15 GRs), last season, I ranked 19th @ p1200 and a GR124 clear thank you. The season before that rank 8, and the season before that rank 4 (HC). Seasons 12-14 I ranked between 12-14 (SC). All with super lower paragon, low augments and low lgem ranks. No rift key fishing either.
Limit GR attempts to say, a maximum of 20 attempts, if after that you haven’t managed to successfully clear the GR, then it’s locked out and you can no longer attempt it. That’ll stop people abusing RNG - fishing 5000 keys for that extra GR clear is not good gameplay, it’s just numbers grinding and requires zero skill, just lots of spare time.
I have raised what I believe to be a really good idea to several people.
My idea is to do a gr chellenge rift like leaderboards where every player is given the exact same gear for a specific character. They then have to attempt gr clears where the gr is the exact same for every person like a challenge rift(eliminates fishing). Each successful challenge gr completion grants additional loot that would be identical for everyone and grants paragon points to spend. The paragon points earned would be inherently limited to challeng gr rift completions, and you only get the xp/paragon for your first completion of a specific gr challenge rift level clear. They could do this for every class.
I dont think anyones going to dispute if that is your assessment of your chances with a guitar, but it really doesnt counter the point that’s been legitimately made.
For most people I do believe it does. Those that have made the point, I agree it applies to them. It also applies to me. Of course we cannot speak for everyone, but I do think very few would come forward and say they’re not constantly improving… tweaking and fine tuning here and there… with one exception.
If they become bored with it, that’s different. Improvement does lean pretty heavily on there being some degree of inspiration to improve and be enjoying it.
Let d3 do a paragon constrained challenge imo and lets see. I agree with you in so much as there will be interesting elements to this. I’m not going to predict outcomes though.
I agree that this does present an issue for such a challenge. I also feel it’s not a particularly enticing prospect (probably for the majority of players) to farm so many keys or fish so many GRs unless there is legitimate automation support to level the playing field… In that there is an issue with the nature of existing competitive d3 play.
I can see ExisFOHDR has some other ideas for balanced competition too.
Mabye not skill but you learn things that’s most people probably don’t know. Example if your pushing the twister wiz and you running a lot your doing it wrong, teleport teleport teleport. Distance over a close oculus, etc. I know plenty of people that don’t know any of this and ask why they can’t get the 150. Or they’re in the bad habit of fighting one blue pack or one yellow at a time. Every class has these little things that will cost you if your pushing high.
I’d call it less skill but most certainly more knowledge. I haven’t found a public GR group and know what’s a support barb is in SC. They said I was lagging the game for using rend but it was never on LOL. I’m starting to figure out that most people don’t know anything and literally copy paste builds without asking questions or doing any research. Yeah you want to clear a GR100 cool you can do almost whatever. But you want to push? Knowing how a build works is tremendous.
However the twister wiz is masking a lot of bad players. The real skilled ones are at sub 9’s for almost any festering first floor. I am not there yet even though my paragon and gear is right up there. I’m still learning the build that I’ve cleared a 150 on.
Yeah you can’t use Twister Wizard this season for any comparisons…I see you in SC LB’s Mamaluvsme and there has been something like over 50 players doing a GR150 in SC via the Wizwaz.
But those that have done the GR150 under ten mins is indeed a better reflection.
dpastern is right that time does not equal skill but more time correlates to skill based on the factors all the above have mentioned.
Wudijo didn’t use 1900 keys to get down a GR150 with Necro at P2700 simply because he wanted double festering…it was not a case of just fishing…it was learning what worked for a GR150 with such low paragon…what mobs to skip…what mobs to group up…where to group up…when to trigger pylon spawns etc…that is where time correlates to skill as the more times he attempted the GR150 the more skilled he got at it.
That is true for all D3 players who sink time…they are not just getting Paragon but are getting more skilled at the game thus whilst Paragon is a factor in players being less skilled doing more than skilled players it is not the only factor.
Knowledge in itself is not skill, agreeably. However, the proper application of learned knowledge is the very definition of skill. There are definitely varying levels of skill from one person to the next; however, the level of skill is limited by the person’s level of knowledge. Typically, the more knowledgable a person is about a specific thing, the more skillful they are at that thing. there is definitely a strong correlation between the two.
