Barb Buffs in 2.6.7: Feedback and Analysis

PTR Feedback
122

With FoT, my Wol-LoD monk could perform 3lvl above. Do not underestimate how strong is 1m of power and 1m of conduit.

We also have a few things to consider:

  • Darkpatator was not with FoT.
  • GR’s first level was good, the trash was good, but it wasn’t the “best” trash.
  • The next level was very bad, he clearly lost a lot of time.
  • There was no other good Pylon (power)
  • D.163 estimates that this barbaro could reach 145-147. I point out that they are generally conservative in their predictions.
  • Other barb constructions need to be competitive for solo push, if WW is dominant we will only have 1 LB build.
  • The fact that barb was ignored in most seasons is no reason to have a much stronger build than the others. Remember that wiz was nerff because it was dominant and much stronger than other builds.
  • Balance between builds and classes = Variety.

You have to take this into account, otherwise we will soon have nerff in barb as well as wiz, we will also have people who will complain that ww is boring and would like other competitive builds.

1 Like
123

? Who told you that? We don’t officially estimate anything.

I am the community moderator of the barb forum (d.163). Seriously speaking, delete this sentence. You are misleading people by using our names.

Again, I only predict the number when ptr is over and then post it. These numbers usually accurate, not conservative.

7 Likes
124

Don’t ask me to remove something I read in your forum. You are unnecessarily annoyed by something you read in your forum. If you want to remove something, remove it. Also, your predictions are NOT accurate, don’t be arrogant.
He predicted that R6 / Shenlong would make 130 with 7k para, but made 133.

125

So you know it was me made the prediction. So why you speak my words with a number I never said? How interesting.

Besides, I am only arrogant to certain people.

4 Likes
126

Do you really understand what I am talking about? When I said you said that? I need to repeat that it was something you read in your forum? I said this is 100% accurate? I said it’s written in stone?

I think you are terribly blinded by the fear of nerff and forget that these are just considerations, and not even your predictions are perfect.

Something you probably know but doesn’t mean: If someone can find a way to fight Terror Demon and survive, it will get much higher.

Arrogance is a defect, not a reason for joy.

127

Hold it there. Barb was and is the worst class. S11 bring some nice changes but current LBs are inflated due to R6Hota. I also say the real state of barbs would be 4-5GRs behind of what the analyses say. However, Just from the numbers, oversll bslance seems ok except Wizards and Demon hunters. At high levels necro skews results as well. So please stop taking one word out of my analyses.

7 Likes
128

All it takes to provide proper feedback is the following:

  1. My personal best with build A on live (season / non-season) is B.
  • paragon level
  • number and rank of augments
  • gem level
  1. My personal best with build A on the PTR (season / non-season) is C.
  • paragon level
  • number and rank of augments
  • gem level
  1. Changes I´ve made to the build are D.
  2. New item/power E feels good / is overpowered / underperforms.

How many forum warriors have actually done this?

Note that they have more than enough Rend data at this point considering how many people play the build. They might be severely lacking data for Slam and HotA builds but hardly anybody here bothers to test them…go play the PTR guys, please.

5 Likes
129

While I don’t agree with your estimates (a 10k Paragon outlier should not be the representative sample for determining what 99% of players in any mode can achieve), I also disagree: Barbs have been trash for years. If–again, if–we’re overpowered for a Season, SO WHAT?

Is the world going to end? Is the game going to fall apart? Will your keyboard explode? Will your cat finally pay rent?

Y’all asking for nerfs, however minor, seem only to have one argument: “Balance.”

But no one seems to know the goal post around which this “balance” is supposed to happen.

The last few Seasons of Wizard have fundamentally broken the idea that all classes are more or less balanced with each other. For better or worse, Wizard has been the outlier, and any discussion that involves buffs has, to some extent or other, been forced to deal with the class’s clear potential.

The problem here is that a 140 clear is not unique to Wizards and Barbarians. Other classes are capable of such at similar (or less) Paragon. Necromancers and Witch Doctors have recorded non-Season clears at 140+, and Demon Hunters have clocked 139. Allowing Barbarians to clear 140+ doesn’t disrupt balance–it brings Barbarians into balance.

But even if it puts at the head of the pack, again I ask: SO WHAT?

One class is always, due to some factor or another, going to be stronger than others in solo potential. This is also true of group compositions; optimization will, over time, favor this over that.

Barbs have trash for years. If we’re overpowered for a Season–and again, I argue we’re not–it’s fine. Let us have our day in the sun without the self-appointed Balance Police demanding we get back in line and return to the garbage heap.

20 Likes
130

IMO idk how barb is compared to other classes top builds but Fjord & Remorseless are under performing by a lot compared to WW.

1 Like
131

I would just caution you to be careful what you wish for. Nerfs later on really don’t feel very good, even when you know they are necessary.

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with barbs being overpowered next patch. Doesn’t bother me at all, I’m pretty much entirely a solo wizard player. Has no effect on me. And honestly, you guys deserve it. You’ve been crap for a while now.

I hope this is clear that this isn’t coming from a place of “oh I’m a butthurt wizard and I want barbs to suffer too!”. While I’ve kept quiet, I follow barb discussions a lot. I was happy to see some attention to barbs this patch.

However, what you want is to be just on the edge of overpowered. You don’t want to be so overpowered that you get nerfed a couple patches down the road. Nerfs feel crappy.

Take this from someone who’s been a die-hard Chantodo Vyr’s player every since season 4 (when it was first introduced). I’ve suffered through both major nerfs to Chantodo Vyr’s. It’s basically the only thing I’ve played since season 4, regardless of how viable it was. (I imagine there are plenty of WW players who are in the same boat)

Both nerfs you say? Yes. People forget, because it was lost behind Firebug and Archon ET in season 6. But at the end of season 6, Chantodo Vyr’s got a major nerf when the multiplicative Swami buff was fixed. Lost about 5x damage [e.g. at 200 + 100 stacks, (1+200*0.06)*(1+100*0.06)/(1+300*0.06) = 4.8x damage], and Chantodo Vyr’s wasn’t viable again until 2.6.1/season 12. People don’t focus on that one because there weren’t many people playing Chantodo Vyr’s then, everyone was on the Firebug and Archon ET bandwagon. And admittedly, it was a bug fix. But it still sucked.

And now it’s happening again. Not as severe this time, but it still feels crappy. Even though it’s necessary.

I thought to myself during the 2.6.5 PTR it might have been a bit overtuned, but I kept quiet. And now we’re paying the consequences.

I don’t play enough barb (<100 hours career) to have a valid opinion on whether WW Rend is too strong right now. If it’s just a bit overpowered, that’s fine. All good. But if it’s a little too overpowered, you might want to think about the long-term consequences of that.

Nerfs suck. If you think it’s a bit overtuned, don’t let it go live. It’s gonna suck a lot later when it gets nerfed. Better to get it tweaked right now, instead of having some power taken away. I wish Chantodo’s had gone live in 2.6.5 with a little less power instead of being nerfed now.

And you could say that so what if it’s a little too overpowered? Just bring everything up to line in the next patch or two if that turns out to be the case. But given the development effort we’ve been seeing on the game, I wouldn’t count on that happening. You don’t want a repeat of what happened with Chantodo’s.

I’m hesitant to post this because I feel like some might see it as anti-barb. But it’s honestly not. I’m all for the barb buffs. I’m on your side here. I just don’t want to see you guys be disappointed in a patch or two. It’s not a good feeling, even when you know it’s for the good of the game.

Nerfs later on are worse than if it had just gone live at the correct power level. And maybe it’ll turn out that that’s not even necessary here. Like I said, I don’t have enough skin in the game. I just don’t want you guys to see a repeat of what we saw with 2.6.5 Chantodo’s.

2 Likes
132

If this is the case, then if Barb “NO” is dominant, should I say “so what”?

If the build in question is for solo, then it is evident that the requested balance is for solo.

DH, WD and Sader are touching their limit. capable of 140 is not the same as being able to do much more than 140. Of course we don’t know exactly how far we can go. But one thing I’m sure of. The player we’ve seen making 140 can go beyond 144 with perfect gear and better GR. As said, there were only a few considerations and are free to argue about.
Also, it’s not just about Barb vs Other classes, it’s also about WW vs Other Barb builds. Are they balanced? Are you looking for the most Barb builds to be competitive and promote variety? Seeking balance is the best way.

That’s what I’m saying to them. They seem so desperate for buffs that they forget that balance is the best, if this build is too strong, nerff will arrive sooner or later. I prefer it to be a little weaker and something definitive, I don’t want it to be the same as Chantodo.

133

Fjord Cutter and Bracers of Destruction test results.

  1. Live S18 Triune HC personal best: GR113 in 14:50 (#11 on EU server right now).
  2. PTR non-season HC personal best:
  • GR117 in 13:56, effective paragon 2250 - I messed up and died to Voracity´s cloud after killing it so I can no longer continue :frowning:
  • GR116 in 11:08, effective paragon 2151, Veteran over Falter
  • GR115 in 11:57, effective paragon 1950, Veteran over Falter

Considering S18 Triune buffs gave me 1-3 GRs and if I wasn´t stupid just now, I would´ve surely cleared GR118-119 on the PTR, I estimate that Fjord Cutter and Bracers of Destruction improve the build by a good 7 (6-9) GRs.

Helm: Might of the Earth
Shoulders: Might of the Earth
Gloves: Might of the Earth
Chest: Might of the Earth
Belt: Captain Crimson
Pants: Captain Crimson
Boots: Might of the Earth
Bracers: Mortick´s Brace
Main Hand: The Slanderer → PTR Fjord Cutter
Off-Hand: Little Rogue → PTR Echoing Fury
Amulet: The Traveler´s Pledge
Ring 1: The Compass Rose
Ring 2: Band of Might
Cubed Weapon: Fury of the Vanished Peak
Cubed Armor: Bracers of Destruction
Cubed Jewellry: Ring of Royal Grandeur
Gems: Gogok, Trapped, Stricken
LMB: Seismic Slam - Permafrost
RMB: Call of the Ancients - Ancient´s Fury
Q: Leap - Death from Above
E: Threatening Shout - Falter → PTR War Cry - Veteran´s Warning
R: Battle Rage - Bloodshed
T: Wrath of the Berserker - Insanity
P1: Nerves of Steel
P2: No Escape
P3: Boon of Bul-Kathos
P4: Ruthless → PTR Weapons Master
Paragon: 1073 → PTR 1150
Augments: +1000 paragon → PTR +1100 paragon

I wish there was another Mighty Weapon with the following legendary power:

Seismic Slam and Ancient Spear have a 45-60% chance to cause an Avalanche and enemies hit by Avalanche take 150% increased damage from your Seismic Slam, Ancient Spear, Earthquake, and Avalanche.

  • the first portion would fix Fury generation via Earthen Might in a more thematically appropriate way than Call of the Ancients
  • the second portion would provide a solid damage boost to Might of the Earth damage dealing skills
  • no need to create a new item from scratch if you add this power to the crafted Night´s Reaping mighty weapon and turn it to a drop :wink:
3 Likes
134

That weapon would undoubtedly lag the server unfortunately

135

Based on my personal experience and observations of some clears.

For IK HOTA the buff number is low, we switch IB to Remorseless, and EoF doesn’t do well in Fishing. By my experience it’s like a 3 level buff.

For LoN HotA it is a 5-7 level buff. As we now have high requirements for cdr.

SS is still unknown. But this play style is my current favorite.

136

The gear doesn’t get much better than what he had.

Has it occurred to you that whatever Barb will be capable of might be the new standard for power creep? I’m hoping the new Monk and Crusader sets are buffed to be on par, of course, but only three classes were addressed this patch, and we haven’t seen the new Barb set.

My stance is this: Better to wait and see what happens in other patches with other classes. Better also to leave Barb as is and carry on with your own class.

It’s a 7 year-old game with (in all likelihood) a sequel and a remastered predecessor in development. I’m not much concerned with what’s in the pipe unless it relates to Barbs and the short time this game has left in relevancy.

137

They have never been trash only drasticaly underpowered by comparison,
But definitely yes, I think Blizzard would get more flak if they nerfed the Barbs and look like total hypocrites if they did not at the least, give the new changes a fair run for at least a season.

Chantodos’ had a full season. In fairness the true measure of any power is a full season, not a one-week PTR FFS.

‘What is good for the goose, is good for the gander’

4 Likes
138

And Star Pact before it.

And back in the day, Archon.

You get my drift.

By the way, I’d like to point out that I do not support the nerf to Chantodo. I understand why it was done, and I even understand that it may have been the easiest thing to do given the development time frame, but it’s still a nerf to a fun, active, skill-intensive build that many players enjoy, and I don’t think taking that away from them is a good thing.

5 Likes
139

Kind sir, just do the PTR Copy again and start from scratch. Usually they let you do it once per day unless they changed it this go around. A pain for sure but if you want to keep testing you can essentially restart.

1 Like
140

I figured as much and neither do I.
If they manage to get every set in every class, the whole 35 (including the new ones coming for each) up to the same levels with their respective individual mechanics, where at any given time, the highest could be any class, any set, any LoD or LoN, then to me that is a win for everyone.

1 Like
141

I agree completely with this, we’re at the end-game and it’s time to blow the doors off for every class. Why they’re nerfing certain classes/specs at this point is beyond me. Vyr’s fell into the trap that players somehow stumbled into a build that was both fun and powerful but for whatever reason that has become the great enemy to Blizzard.

Crank things to 11 and call it a day, you have groups clearing 150 within the span of a PTR it would seem so I’m baffled at folks arguing for patience with a 7 years game that essentially has already been won.

11 Likes