2.6.8+ Barb Buff Proposal II

I think if you just took the IK bonus to 7000%, this would make IK HOTA capable of reaching 140, at high paragon. Still not as good as Zodiac Rend, maybe, but close. It would also bring VC up to the 140 area, which would be nice for those who love that build.

More EQ damage would certainly help Phys Leap too, though it would diminish the relative benefit of the damage you get from SS, and would certainly leave Fire well ahead of Phys. At this point, though, you’re going to kind of run into an issue, which is that virtually anything you do to specifically buff Phys Leapquake will push Pro-Slam further ahead of both Fire and Phys.

And it would be tough to add a new item to equalize them, because where would it go? Fire, at least, has a bit of flexibility in the bracer slot, but Phys must take BoD. I guess you could have a new amulet that buffed slam damage for just 1 second after leaping or something like that, but that’s going to cost you FoT, which will drag you back down about 2 GRs…

I’ve always loved the close contest between Phys and Fire, but I think at this point it’s a good bet that if Leapquake gets buffed at all, Phys is toast.

One viable route is to buff FotVP with an affix (not legendary power), increasing Seismic Slam damage per fury spent. That would make it Rumble friendly and it would not be used at all by Pro-Slam

Edit: read it as 2% increased Seismic Slam damage per fury spent

Can you think of an “affix” like that, on another item, that isn’t a legendary power?

I mean, I guess if you made the Tribes damage bonus part of the extractable power, you could then have a DIBS bonus on FotVP, separate from the legendary power. That would be weird, but it would work.

i.e. you’d still have +500% as part of the legendary power, and a separate, +100% dibs bonus as well.

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Make it a legendary power, then? I know it would buff Pro Slam too, but it would make Phys Slam viable again, if EQ and Avalanche damage would be buffed aswell

Well, what does “viable” mean, then? If Pro-Slam shoots up to 145, is Phys Leapquake doing 136 “viable”?

I’m gonna second what Rage said and put it a different way: It’s unrealistic to ask a set or build to do everything on par.

Right now, the Wastes set does Rend really well. It would be unrealistic to ask that items for the WW skill get brought up to par (for a number of reasons, including server performance).

When it comes to EQ, I’m all for buffing Tribes, Dread Iron, and Girdle, but with two specific goals in mind:

  • Buffing Fire EQ damage output through EQ damage
  • Buffing Phys EQ damage out through EQ and Avalanche damage

In other words, Physical EQ’s reliance on Slam is no longer relevant since Slam is best utilized in the-Pro-Slam build.

The above two objectives can be easily accomplished by:

  1. Making the additive EQ bonus on Tribes into a multiplier
  2. Amending Avalanche to that multiplier
  3. Increasing the multiplier

To make Avalanche worthwhile, you would need to:

  1. Add an Avalanche multiplier to Dread Iron

To further buff Fire EQ, you need to:

  1. Increase the multiplier on Girdle

These are relatively simple fixes. But again, Phys EQ + Slam is a thing of the past.

As for fixing IK HOTA . . .

I think you are basically saying that the only viable route to buff MotE without OPing Pro Slam is to focus on Firequake through EQ and Avalanche, but then Phys Slam is way behind, and it’s a way fun build for us to give up on it, brother. Think about it

I edited my reply from a couple minutes ago… simplest way to do it would be, like I said, a separate DIBS bonus on FotVP. You’d only need like 100-200% to do it. If I could snap my fingers and just make it happen, I would, but I’m not sure I see Blizz going for something like that.

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Free, I look at you as a leader of our barb community, man. I know you’re hyped because your favorite build is the top dog now, but this I do not agree. “Let it die” seriously?

I appreciate it, I do, but think about it for a second.

How many ways is one skill supposed to be buffed? How many builds are supposed to viably incorporate a skill as a means of dealing damage? I know HOTA is a weird outlier, but that’s mainly because Raekor is badly designed and HOA items are very, very powerful.

Slam is very good in Pro-Slam because the build really caters to its strengths. This was the case before Fjord got reworked. You want Slam to be really good in Phys EQ as well?

Personally, I don’t think that plays to Slam’s strengths, but it could be done if you mess with Peak. Of course, when you do that, you will likely also buff Pro-Slam. You follow where I’m going? This is Diablo III, and like it or not, there are optimal ways to play a build and skill, and everything else ends up inferior. For instance, you can put Ambo’s and Lamentation in the Cube and run the old 4x Rend build, but it’s just not going to be as strong as the current Zodiac Rend setup.

Should it? That’s a philosophical question, and if your stance is, “Absolutely!” I can respect it.

Will it? Realistically, are the devs going to bother fiddling even more with Slam just to make one niche Phys EQ build worthwhile?

Nah, man. If we’re going to get buffs, we need to target specific builds–the bigger, more popular ones, or the ones that many players feverishly want (i.e. primary skills) or simple numbers adjustments that don’t overlap with current builds.

Something Rage and I were very good at in the last proposal creation was keeping things realistic. The current buffs reflect that. I’m keeping that same frame of mind for this round, too.

So, do I want Phys EQ buffed? Absolutely!

But I prefer to approach it through EQ and Avalanche, and leave Slam as the Fury dump, because this approach, to me:

  • is more realistic
  • is likely to produce a stronger overall build
  • won’t also buff other, Slam-centric builds

I mean, think about it. I’m not asking for additional WW buffs because I can accept that even if 4x Rend was fun for some folk, it’s not a priority to makeit so that Rend builds can be played three or four or five different ways. It’s just not in the cards.

If only we could think of a way to suggest -realistically, like you said- adding a Rumble damage somewhere (FotVP, dread iron or girdle, maybe) it would make sense.

I mean… Pro slam will be about Cold, it wouldn’t be touched. And it’s not unreasonable to ask for a rune specif buff, we got Skullar as an example of that.

I ask you and Rage consider adding it to our suggestion list.

Edit: FotVP - increased 500% Seismic Slam damage. Rumble does x% additional damage per fury spent.

That would work

Well, if this were added, you’d want x to be 1%, since that would give you as much as 206% increased damage.

I think this could be abused by a pure slam build, though. I tried out a “Rumble-spam” build in the PTR, using ancients with the upgraded AF shoulder to generate fury, and it did seem to work, though not as well as Pro-slam. A further tripling of your Rumble damage, though, might lead to abandoning Permafrost for Rumble and using Chilling Earth or TS: Intimidate to slow/chill mobs. After all, currently, Rumble only needs to spend about 20 fury to exceed Permafrost in damage. So, with this “Rumble deals 1% additional damage per fury spent” change, what you’d probably see is people carrying FotVP, sticking FC in the cube, and rather uncomfortably spamming Rumble. That would basically break Pro-slam, which would be a real shame.

My suggestion of a separate DIBS bonus on FotVP would basically produce the same result, so that’s not any better.

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Here’s a way Rumble could be made more relevant again without screwing things up.

Again, assuming Tribes is changed to buff Avalanche damage, and Dread Iron’s Avalanche damage bonus is jacked up as well, then the affix on DI could be something like “Ground Stomp causes an Avalanche every second for the next 6 seconds”. Then you could possibly have a rotation like

Stomp - Leap - Slam - Leap - Slam - Leap - Slam

With all those extra avalanches generating fury, your rate of Rumble slamming would be considerably increased. You could possibly drop Lut Socks from the cube while still maintaining a fairly brisk leaping rate. Either GoG or DI would go in the cube, the other would be worn. This would allow Avalanche, EQ, and Rumble to all deal a reasonable portion of the total damage.

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Thank you so much for giving credit to this idea, Rage. Really, really loved the suggestion.

May I even say that a Avalanche + Rumble spam sounds even better than leap leap leap slam.

Really great idea!

Thanks, Hadd. Let me think through the numbers a little further to see if this thing would actually work.

Let’s start, actually, with Fire Leapquake. Based on numbers I came up with before, you can drop about 1200 EQs in a GR, which, with the MF rune, deal about 7.2 million damage. If our buffed Tribes gives us 6x and our buffed GoG give us 7x, we end up at about 303 million damage (this would put Fire Leapquake into the GR 138-140 range, at very high paragon). So that’s the general ballpark we should aim for in our EQ / AV / Rumble build, too.

Ideally, I guess I’d like to see each of those 3 skills dealing a relatively equal portion of the damage.

First thing we need to figure out is whether that rotation I suggested would actually work. If you’ve got 33.3% CDR, Leap has a cooldown of 6.66 seconds. It also takes about .75 seconds to Slam, so the actual cooldown you need to offset is more like 5.91 seconds. MOTE 2 cools down your skills by 1 second for every 30 Fury spent, so you need to dump about 177 Fury to reset your Leap.

Leaping generates 15 Fury, and the EQ you cause gives you 30 more. If an Avalanche is coming down every second, that’s an additional 30, but that only gets us to 75. I think you’d need DI to generate 4 Avalanches every second to actually have enough fury to complete this rotation.

4 Avalanches would give you 120 Fury, plus 15 from the Leap and 30 from the EQ. Adding in 10% extra from the Templar’s Inspire power, you’d be at 182, which would probably be enough (you could run Animosity, Weapon Master, or Gogok if there were any troubles).

Off the top of my head, that wouldn’t cause any problems. AV only ticks damage 2 or 3 times, if I remember correctly, so it certainly shouldn’t cause lag. And, since AV does such measly damage currently, it’s not as though you’d be doing an overly large amount of damage.

So, your rotation would be Stomp, Leap, Slam, Leap, Slam, Leap, Slam.

It takes .5 seconds to Stomp, .75 to Leap, and .75 to Slam. So that full rotation would take 5 seconds, total. In that 5 seconds, you’d deploy 3 EQs, 3 Rumbles, and 20 Avalanches. In a full, 900 second long Greater Rift, it would be 540 EQs, 540 Rumbles, and 3600 (!) Avalanches.

Again, let me say that Avalanche’s damage is currently so measly that, unbuffed, even this insane number of Avalanches would only do about 8.6 million damage, compared to 7.2 million, unbuffed, for Molten Fury.

With Tribes at 6x and GoG at 7x, those 540 EQs would do 4800 * 540 * 6 * 7 = 108,864,000 damage from EQ.

With Rumble’s damage essentially unchanged, except for the rate at which we deploy it, its damage would be roughly 5500% damage per cast * 540 * 6 * 6 = 106,920,000 damage from Rumble.

So to match the 303 million damage of Fire Leapquake, we need to get about 87 million damage out of Avalanche. We know that there will be 3600 of them, and that each does a base 2400% damage, so that’s 8.64 million damage, so we need about 10x to get to where we need to be. If AV is added to Tribes, that’s 6x right there, so DI would really only need about a 70% bonus. Call it a 100% bonus, since Rumble will lose a little damage from the 10 enemy cap on BoD, and I think this thing would work. That would be 8.64 million * 6 * 2 = 103,680,000 damage from Avalanche

I think this build would be fun to play, a bit different, would utilize one of the most-neglected Barb skills (Avalanche), and would be powerful but not OP (probably capable of around GR 140, at very high paragon).

The actual text of the Legendary power on DI could be "Ground Stomp causes Avalanches to rain down continuously for 5 seconds. Damage of Avalanche is increased by 100%."

It could be one Avalanche every .25 seconds, or 4 at a time each second… the former is probably better, certainly more visually interesting.

I think you’d want further castings of Stomp to simply reset the duration of this rain of Avalanches to 5 seconds, rather than causing a whole new set that could run concurrently, because then you would be just be spamming Stomp as much as you could, and that would be a dumb mechanic. Besides, 3600 Avalanches is enough!

Edit: Ugh, shoot, I forgot Threatening Shout and the EQ/AV’s it would cause via Tribes. I don’t think you’d run War Cry since you’d need BR:STP to stay alive.

You can generally TS about 135 times per GR, which would be another 135 AVs and EQs. This would only increase the damage of your giant Avalanche pile by only about 3.75%, to about 107 million, but it would increase your total EQ damage by 25%, to about 136 million. Which would make your total damage about 350 million, a significant (+15.5%, about 1 GR) step up from Fire Leapquake’s 303 million.

Maybe that’s ok. Or, with that in mind, you might want to drop the damage bonus from DI entirely. That would leave Avalanche doing only about 53 million, but with Avalanches being such a huge part of your fury generation, I think they’d still feel like a very important part of the build.

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I really liked your idea. That would give Dread Iron a purpose and at the same time create a third route to MotE set, a fully chaotic Slam-EQ-Avalanche. It feels satisfying just at the thought of it, and that rain of trillions filling the screen.

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Thanks, man.

And now that I think of it, this setup doing a little more “base” damage than Fire Leapquake is probably ok, since you’d run into a bit of a jam on your skill bar.

You’d need SS, Stomp, and Leap for sure. You’d be almost required to take BR:STP to stay alive, since you can’t use APDs. You’ve got 2 more slots, one of which will almost certainly be filled with WOTB:Insanity. For your last slot, you’ll have to choose between TS:Falter and EQ:Cave-In. If you don’t take Cave-In, your quakes will be the Fire base, and you’ll miss out on the elemental (Phys) bonus you have on bracers and Ammy to buff your Avalanches and Rumble. If you take Cave-in but leave Falter, this costs you some DIBS and also a good chunk of your EQ damage, since you’d lose 135 of them.

So, a 100% damage bonus to Avalanche on DI would be ok after all.

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I guess you would want to go with EQ Cave in, for the last skill slot. Not only for damage, but also for crowd control. Having everyone grouped tightly and stunned (through leap) with all those damage going on is certainly better than Falter, which shall be missed.

About SS rumble discussion just my two cents: originally leap was a boulder toss build. This was changed only because of the GoG belt and its bad design. They even edited an SS rune for it to make fury dump.

I would like to take your attention to skular salvation and boulder toss interaction. If pro-slam is not going yo be made op, we will need to shift the item interactions to skular salvation-dread iron and boulder toss in leap quake builds. Probably EQWay will need GoG and SS rumbke. With a different leapquske avalance boulder toss concept Dread iron-skular-boulder toss

I understand what you’re saying, but I actually think Seismic Slam fits better the whole theme of the set. I know it also fits Ancient Spear in the 6pc, but I guess they could make Boulder toss an option aswell, not the only way of playing it.