Where did they say this?
On the old forum: Diablo 3 Forums
1 Like
Still great work free. Really hoping to see some good news when the ptr patch comes out. Good luck to us all!
1 Like
Great work, btw surprised that such extensive essay completely devoted to the weakness of barbarians in GR Ladder only, and there’is no place for mentioning Torment, the second aspect in terms of importance, where the barbarians are also completely behind in comparison with other classes.
Particulary, regarding the symbiosis with the Sage’s set, which is possible only with the IK set (and only as a compromise with a 2H native weapon instead of necessary IB pair) - far not the best and fastest build for T16 DB farm.
Imho it would be appropriate to add to the Proposal List a request for the 7th item (amulet, as other classes have) - for WotW (or at least for MotE) Set, since the rest of builds using EW jewelry…
You know what you should do as well?
Create another, separate proposal or a separate section in your current proposal where you also play around or theorycraft around with a few base skill changes, just for the fun of it and also because you wouldn’t have these self-limiting boundaries of “only adjust items but not skills” placed on yourself.
Make sure that it states that this is something separate from the original proposal and should not be used in conjunction with it, but rather be seen as some interesting ideas.
I mean you already had some suggestions for passive skills, which in itself can have “unintended consequences”, so why not try it with active skills as well? I would be interested in seeing what you come up with.
Hi Manowar. Thanks for the feedback.
We indirectly address this through our buffs. For example, if we get our necessary cross-class buffs, our builds will be on par with other classes for speed-farming Torments. As far as the Sage’s set, it’s not a major concern for the community, and we’re not proposing any major set changes to accommodate it.
Thanks. That could be fun, but we’re already at work on a slightly different project. I can’t speak for Rage, but I don’t have any interest in tweaking base skills. We’ll likely be unveiling our next project sometime in August or September.
1 Like
Update: Fluffy has discussed our proposal on his most recent podcast:
Coverage for our proposal starts at 34:10
They said some very nice things about proposal, though I do wish there hadn’t been so much speculation about Skull Grasp. With our tuning, Whirlwind isn’t going to hit GR 140, much less come anywhere near the absurdity of Wizard. But they still make some great points.
Check it out and let me know what y’all think!
5 Likes
Can we get a sticky on this or something? the Dev’s NEED to read this.
1 Like
Don’t worry, they have!
Lately, there’s been some discussion about our proposal, specifically about the problems with our various builds. Much of our proposal takes a player’s knowledge for granted, but since not everyone has played all of the major Barb builds, I’d like to discuss that here. The following is a breakdown of each major build’s problems, as well as a discussion of our most popular minor builds.
If you haven’t read the proposal, please do so–the link is in the OP.
Zodiac WW
WW is a popular build, but it’s also one of the most problematic and broken builds available to Barbarians.
Build Problems:
- Very demanding in terms of gear and skill requirements.
- Relies on gimmicks and secondary item rolls to survive in high GRs.
- Requires some heavy-duty fishing as the build can only deal meaningful damage against certain mob types in very thick density. This is a direct result of front-loading all the build’s damage into a single skill–Whirlwind.
- Half the set is broken (Rend). Our List 2 fixes would fix all of these problems!
Vile Charge
VC is powerful, but has some major problems that make it frustrating for many players.
Build Problems:
- Inability to deal any significant single-target damage. As a result, this build must fish for RGs, and many players must forfeit a fantastic rift due to spawning a terrible RG. Our buffs to Skular’s would help in this regard.
- Reliance on wall-charging to deal significant damage. This will come up again when we discuss R6 HOTA.
R6 HOTA
Our most powerful build, R6 HOTA also benefits the most from wall-charging and bugged elites (known as the “Bug Pack”).
Build Problems:
- Relies on wall-charging. Similar to Vile Charge, this gimmicky, broken mechanic makes the build seem stronger than it truly is.
- There are arguments about the very nature of the build being a problem, but as we opted not to ask for overhauls to sets, that is beyond the scope of the proposal.
Fire / Physical EQ
While these versatile builds are easy to gear and relatively powerful, they fail to offer the build diversity implied by the set bonuses.
Build Problems:
- Inability to deal significant single-target damage. This isn’t a deal breaker considering the impressive AOE of the build, and our BK Wedding Band idea would help this aspect.
- Many of the set’s built-in buffs are useless. Though Ancient Spear and Avalanche are included in the set’s meaty bonuses, their supporting legendaries are outdated and useless. Our buffs to items like Girdle of Giants, Dread Iron, and Skular’s would fix these problems!
IK HOTA
Though powerful, the IK HOTA build is outclassed by its Raekor counterpart.
Build Problems:
- Pales in comparison to R6 HOTA. Despite this build being the definitive HOTA build, the Raekor version deals far more damage. Our idea for Remorseless would solve this problem in one fell swoop.
Pro-Slam (minor build)
Popular and fun, this build is hamstrung by outdated items.
Build Problems:
- Seismic Slam items are both too weak and too restrictive in terms of utility. Even though this build can spam Slam, its damage is very lackluster when compared to our major builds. This is despite the build using the set that grants the largest (20,000%) multiplier to Slam! Our Fjord Cutter idea would fix this in a jiffy!
LON / Primary-Skill Builds
Despite being some of the most asked-about builds, Barb has no worthwhile options for LON- or primary-skill builds.
Build Problems:
- Once Season 17’s Nightmares buff ends, all of our LON options will be, across the board, weak and underwhelming compared to our major and minor builds, and doubly so when compared to the LON options offered to other classes. Even our go-to classic, Frenzy Thorns, struggles to clear GR 105.
- Likewise, we have no viable, much less semi-viable options for primary-skill builds (generators). Our buffs to our passive skills and various primary-skill items would fix these problems.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? Post away and we’ll be happy to discuss!
2 Likes
I thought it was pretty good coverage. They were a little off on a few technical points (you don’t need 400% more damage per GR level!), but the overall tone seemed super supportive, for which I am very grateful.
Still got my fingers crossed that we get heard and our recommendations are seriously considered!
1 Like
Yeah, I was scratching my head at that part. Same with wondering if our buff to Skull Grasp would see Whirlwind doing 140. I wish!
I guess they are not really “numbers guys”. You know how it is! ![:wink:](https://d1hnj6esvk269c.cloudfront.net/en/d3/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
1 Like
~https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/TOPCommander-1945/hero/111946817~
This is a link to your profile.
I wish you played more, but you did mention several seasons ago that once the 1 to 70 grind was over in new season and all haedrig gifts done things started to slow down for you.
I enjoy it all and getting to 2k paragon this season is one of my goals I will reach next week end.
Maybe see you when the ptr goes live!
I normally never play Seasons because I can’t afford that kind of time, but I might be persuaded to join y’all. Keep me posted!
See I love the start of a new season. The grind to 70 with a group is a blast for me. I love the starting over and the feeling of acquiring all your items new again. I have a family and full time job so I know I’ll never be super competitive but I do love the grind and the fun of group play.
2 Likes
Yay, more power creep!
- Yes, 100% agree. (Keep in mind your List 2 adds more specific items)
- No, you can use a Band of Might ring with furious charge instead for the durability, the only loss is the Ancient spear skill, which is only a quality of life in certain situations. The 4 piece % damage reduction being buffed would avoid this issue all together.
- Fishing is not required, even for high tier rifts. The bulk of the density damage is due to dust devils procing AOE & Bloodshed. Keep in mind that just because there might be one kind of amazing rift that the build would do great in it does not matter too such a degree unless its a map without enough enemies (We all know what caves i am talking about), balancing is the most important first step.
- We already disagree on this one, we both know where we stand.
LT, you don’t seem to know how the build works.
Every high clear has used Spear, you really can’t drop that and get far. Not “some”, not “most”… every single one. No high clears have used Band of Might. None, zero, zilch, nada. You need CoE for the damage.
As for fishing, every single person who has achieved much with this build has reported it to be the fishiest of all Barb builds: even more than Leapquake or VC.
You don’t appear to be on the Barb leaderboards at all, seasonal or non-seasonal.
I’m not sure whether you’re a troll or just confused…
2 Likes
And that matters why? Leaderboards does not necessarily mean anything especially since paragon is such a big factor with this build, and really any build.
If you are asking for specifics I have done 98 solo with my WW build and 92 with Leap Quake but that’s just from casual amounts of time.
I’m not saying what requires the most, i’m saying it is not a required component too play the build.
That’s because they have invested far more time to get perfect rolls for the gear, something that normal people will not try to invest into unless they pool absurd amounts of time into it (Otherwise known as not a normal person), its not something i’m interested in, its not a fun mechanic.
The point of builds is to not require massive amounts of specific pieces of gear with perfect rolls, that removes 99% of players. Plus don’t forget the issues with lag the AoE & bloodshed caused by dust devils which makes it so you can’t even use it for group play on high tier rifts.
LT, Rage is 100% right: You don’t understand how the Zodiac WW build works. I’m not saying that to cut you down or to dismiss your opinions, but some opinions are more valid than others, especially those supported by reliable knowledge and experience. Let me tackle your points in order.
Our List 2 items do several things.
First, they fix Rend. This gives the build an additional source of damage that is more consistent throughout the rift, and one that assists in single-target DPS vs elites and the RG. This means fishing is less frustrating since we will deal more damage to more mob types, and RGs without adds won’t be as awful as they currently are.
Band of Might is never an option for end-game pushes. If you want to push Zodiac WW to the limits, you can’t afford to drop COE. Our proposed buffs don’t change this a bit.
While you can play the build without Rage Flip, that is not optimal. The optimal setup uses Rage Flip to gather density and pull elites to new packs of trash. If anything, you give up War Cry for TS or Ground Stomp. And remember, this build deals zero damage outside of density. Zodiac WW relies on Bloodshed and AD procs generated by the maximum possible WW and DD hits in a given window of time, and if you want that juicy damage payout, you absolutely need lots and lots and lots of density to get hit. Check my Zodiac WW guide in the Barb forums for a density tutorial to get a better idea about what I’m saying.
And for the record, while our proposed buffs to Rend would make fishing far less frustrating and fussy, it wouldn’t eliminate the build’s need for density.
Finally, fishing is 100% required to play this build, and this build begins to fish much earlier than every other major Barb build. It has been proven time and time again that there are only 3-4 maps + mob types upon which this build can deal damage. If you don’t think this build requires fishing, well, I’m not sure what game you’re playing, because every build requires fishing, and some builds require more than others, and this build requires more fishing than most.
That depends. The build certainly doesn’t have to fish T16 rifts, sure. But if you’re pushing GRs, Zodiac WW requires fishing earlier than other major Barb builds. To make matters worse, there are fewer rift conditions that will allow the build to deal meaningful damage.
You seem to be confused, because what you’re describing is the current state of the game. Our proposed buffs would make it easier for everyone, at every level of play. Sure, there will be certain players who invest more time into perfecting their gear and skill, and those players will clear higher GR tiers. They deserve to. And what’s more, we’re confident in saying that builds that are more demanding in terms of gear and skill should ultimately be more powerful than builds with less demanding requirements. Thus, even with our List 2 changes, Zodiac WW is still going to require good gear and a lot of practice. It’s just that it won’t be as frustrating or obtuse as it is now; it won’t force you to fish for 500+ keys to clear 110 when every other build will clear 110 in 50; it won’t require fussy secondary rolls on belt to proc Parthans; it won’t force you to worry about IP and where your Zodiac procs are going.
You want the build to be more accessible?
Us too. Our proposed buffs will do exactly that.
But when Rage and I say you don’t understand how the build works, we’re right–you don’t. Take some time and fish for 99, 100, and so forth with your build. Take it as high as you can in, say, 100 keys. Then, at the same Paragon, Augments, and so forth, take an easier build–say, IK HOTA–and make the same progressive climb. You’ll see right away what we’re talking about.
Our opinions aren’t just made up on intuition. I’ve been playing WW since D3 Vanilla, and have been, for lack of a better term, the WW guy on the Barb forums for a long time. Many top 10 Barbs, including some Rank 1, have given me their input over the years, and what you see in my guide isn’t stuff I learned on my own.
2 Likes