2.6.6 and Barbs: A Measured Response

As I gathered servers having issues with tickrates and area damage is a conspiracy theory created by trolls to keep middle Barbarians down and prevent their well earned trippled-quadruppled damage buff… Blizzard surely fixed it and engine is not old at all.

Nah… Jokes aside removing Dust Devils would create another uproar on the forums, just like you see here. Because you just removed WW Barbarian’s area damage and effective range. Applying their damage to a crowd will be like painting a canvas. While still an option, result is obvious; possibly longer GR clear for more effort. You cannot explain that was about server burden and analytics to a few angry people. I doubt it. All you ever gonna get was threats of reporting, half dozen threads about same subject and 40 page long essays that conclude nothing also fictious and impractical at best.

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Dont know why you are are surprised and disappointed at this point with everything rhat has happened over the years. These are the same devs that were gonna give us 5 extra tabs last patch then eventually reduced it to 1. Didnt you guys read about that on your phones?

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Free why are we still talking about what is “terrifying to the devs” when devs have allowed Necro builds to kill Blighter in 45 seconds or less in a 4 player 150 game?

They have allowed Wizards the damage to solo 140+ and create insane speed farm builds with vyrs. Even before Vyrs, solo Star Pact was stronger than everything else.

They have allowed Wizards enough damage to one shot entire pulls of trash and elites in 150.

Those things are completely “game breaking” and are in the game for years now.

So why are people still stuck on this limited, enclosed mentality about other classes?

You can’t be afraid of a Frenzy Barb potentially doing damage in a solo GR 120 or potentially being able to kill RGs at a very bad pace in the current climate of the game, man.

It’s just not a realistic scenario where people are going to be “scared at what Barb can accomplish” because you’re never ever going to pull off what I described above to begin with.

The “precious game balance” ship sailed long ago.

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Haha, it’s not false. But if we want to be credible, we must remain reasonable.

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By extension, one might argue that the fact that the 4 man push meta from season 4-17 always include monks and barbs to be a suboptimal characteristic for other classes most notably crusaders, demon hunters, and witch doctors.

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Man don’t balance based on other classes. Make the weak ones stronger period. Along your argument, Wiz and Necro are part of the 4 man meta and are the two strongest solo classes.

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That’s a good point, so let me clarify that when I say “terrifying” I mean realistic. Personally, I don’t think the devs ever intended Necros and Wizards to be quite that powerful; I could be wrong, but I think the builds, as they work in 4-player groups, simply way overshot their design estimates. So, if we want buffs, and we want to argue to them why and how we want buffs, there has to be some realistic goal point, some rubric to guide the numbers.

That’s what we presented in the proposal–you were a big part of the revision process, so you already know all this. Our ideas would indeed give is a Frenzy Barb that could RGK in 120. In fact, our List 2 ideas would give us several options to do stuff like that.

Will we ever get that kind of stuff?

I certainly hope so.

That’s true, but what’s implicit in your arguments about the meta is the idea that we should take away X from a class so others can have a shot.

I don’t agree with that sentiment at all.

There will always be an optimal meta for various group comps, and it will always exclude a few classes. That’s the nature of the game. Even if you had 10 slots instead of 4, some classes would get left by the wayside.

However, if you want other classes to have off-meta options, similar to what Crusaders and Demon Hunters already have, you need to advocate for changes along those lines. And if you want to see certain classes elevated to the 4-player meta, you need to do the same.

Advocate for buffs. Never advocate for nerfs.

Either way, it’s always going to be up to the devs to decide whether or not they address the meta. Very often, they don’t.

Haha, yeah. Barb will never ever take away anyone’s damage spot in the meta even with EXTENSIVE buffs.

@MicroRNA; as for other classes role in the meta, Crusader and DH have viable RGK roles but people are too laser focused on Necros right now. Crusader is capable of sub 10 minute 150 clears. Barb cannot do that ever.

Crusader and DH are amazing Rift Guardian killers all the way up to 150 and they also all have great solo builds.

Zmonk has been in the meta since forever, and I think Monks should also get solo buffs. Presence in the meta as a zdps shouldn’t matter in this argument.

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Star Pact is one of the most demanding and skill intensive builds to play, right? Particularly in groups?

Asking because that’s my perception. If so, what other builds from any classes are that difficult and complex? Just curious.

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I disagree intellectually with this statement. Given the games age and its current resource allocation, sometimes it is better to ask for a nerf to a single class rather than ask for buff to 6 other classes. If class X was made head and shoulders above all due to a particular skill, then it makes sense to nerf that.

How many people asked for nerfs to auto-firing sentries back in the day? Did it make sense to kill that? How many people asked for nerf to witch doctors as zDPS because the game turned into killing immobilized statues? I think there is strong precedence for the importance of nerfs.

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When Blizzard was asked if bazooka was an exploit, they said that it wasn’t; however they also added if it killed build diversity that they would potentially nerf it.

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We came from those ages and the general community / Blizzard staff changes philosophies since. That rather than nerf an unintended form of playstyle, buffing others to match was the then moving forward strategy. Provided its not bugged or too game breaking.

What are the recent nerfs?
Inarius bone storm proc rate against mirinae. Paragon swap?

D3 as a whole has moved away from nerfing. Its probably true and logical to nerf 1 build to match 600 low performing builds in the angle of corporate resource management. But due to the OPness on a particular build, players who dumped large amount of resources, energy / effort into making an optimized spec, what are the compensations made up for him/her? For example, Bazooka is easily the hot target in town. My self alone has spent every blood shard I earned from Nov 2017 to Jan 2019 to obtain an optimized Etched Sigil. Accumulated blood shards on this item alone come close to 10 million shards. I am just 1 in 10,000 wiz out there. If today Bazooka nerfed to grounds, imagine how each of those feels?

End of day we should be able to CHOOSE not playing a build rather than FORCED to not playing a build because it has been NERFED and not viable.

Hence we should advocate for buffs, never advocate for nerfs.

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Awesome response, celtic! You summed it up perfectly. This really hit home for me:

I would add this: If you want other classes to have more options in groups, advocate for changes and buffs for them! Organize at a community level and whip up a proposal like we did for Barbs!

Personally, I want to see every class get its fair share of buffs proportionate to need. Barbs need it the most, but Monks aren’t far behind.

Something else to consider: I believe that the most difficult builds in terms of gear and skill should also be the most powerful. If Bazooka Wiz is very gear-intensive and takes lots and lots of skill to play, maybe it should be as capable as it is!

If we apply that thinking to Barbs, we can see that Zodiac WW and R6 HOTA are the most difficult, gear-intensive builds we have. Vile Charge isn’t nearly as difficult, even if it does require the same gimmick as R6.

What about other classes? What are their most difficult builds in terms of gear and skill?

I am arguing that a nerf is appropriate if something is overpowered. A nerf should bring it back into line with other options. Being similar to other options does not mean “not viable” it just means not “the best by far”. That is the issue.

P.S. The PTR just ended officially. There will be no more soup for barbs.

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Let’s be honest, Necromancer was definitely over tuned to increase those DLC purchases. I don’t think it is overly cynical or conspiratorial to make this claim.

I actually don’t even fault Blizz for doing it. But here we are now, almost 2 years later right? Why haven’t the other classes been buffed to be on more equal footing yet?

Like, I’m not a programmer. I only know intermediary Python and Java. I know nothing about the D3 game engine. But there’s no way it should be this hard to have all 7 classes around the same power level. It’s literally adjusting damage multipliers until the classes can all do the same GR level in similar fashion.

Where are the internal testing? Why not have a closed testing with top tier players who will show you the exact power of each build?

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I agree. The question is why has the 4 man push meta stagnated relative to class composition since season 12 and in other ways since season 4.

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There was never going to be soup this PTR for Barbarians.

I think we’ve only ever seen one PTR see a change added after the fact. Every PTR is just testing the changes given at the start and then looking for bugs and gauging power levels.

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Yeah, as soon as I saw the PTR notes, I knew Barbs weren’t getting anything. Same ol’, same ol’. I hope the blog post from Nev clears up what’s going on.

Just to be transparent: If we have to wait another patch or so to get worthwhile buffs, I’m cool with that. I get it–it’s a big game with lots of competing interests. Do I think Barbs should be at the head of the line? Hell yeah! But if, say, Monks or Demon Hunters got love next patch, I couldn’t even be mad–they desperately need it, too!

And if we get word that definite buffs are coming, I’ll be way less agitated. I think most Barbs will, too–doubly so if we get some kind of timetable.

For the Barb community, what we need–need–is to know that A) our concerns are being taken seriously, and B) that buffs are coming at some specific point.

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Theme of D3 today is power creep. Ever since we got crazy amount of 0s put in our multipliers, we are hunting for more power. Is there a cap to it? Absolutely. WIth D3’s 7+ year old source code, the ceiling / cap is very close. Bazooka might be your ultimate build that all other builds tries to match it to an extend. Nerfing bazooka is easy. Just kill the channeling window will keep SP in a single archon buff rather than overlap. What are the consequences? Unless another build replaces Bazooka is a viable 150 speed option, players havent reached this tier will be bottlenecked of acquiring 150 augments. If a build replaces Bazooka as trash killers. You essentially didnt nerf it, but buffed other builds to match its power. Its better to buff than nerf as nerf in this state will create more problems.

Back to barb topic. Barbs deserves better situation. This community is the most dedicated compare to other classes. Just visit each class forum you ll see the difference.

So what? We ll continue to fight it.

At this point, I’d actually prefer an honest communication that said “Sorry, we’re just never going to do anything for Barbs ever again so suck up being the worst hero class” than the constant will we / won’t we wishy-washiness that we keep getting strung along with. Having said that, I fully expect to just get more stringing along.

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