And how would being able to do 10% damage, be worse than the current scenario, which is 0%? Please humor me.
Because currently you can further lower it by -res effects or other sources like sanctuary aura+decrepify, -enemy res…after lower resist or conviction.
Having cap at 90% is nonsense.
Okay so you don’t know then. When you break immunity, ALL Your resist reduction abilities are reduced by 90%, even after it’s broken. That means even if your LR was to reduce by 100%, it only does 10. You’re actually already doing about 90% right now.
You talk about your suggestion or actual 2.4 patch?
How would it kill hybrid builds? If you’re farming an area with light immunes you will make the active decision to remove your sunder charm and use fire/cold hybrid. How does this gimp hybrid ?
They’re also not useless at this point either, if you’re going to add significant buffs, then you need to add significant nerfs in some way as well, especially if it’s for an already OP character. If you want Fire Sorc to be able to kill all monsters, then make all monsters more difficult for the fire sorc. It’s not a dumb suggestion, you just don’t seem to want to understand the potential value. It makes choosing the sunder charm good in some situations and bad in others, rather than making mindless decisions that take 0 effort.
It’s not a bad gameplay idea, a lot of people were happy immunities were introduced in 1.09, because it increased build diversity and forced people to play other character that weren’t just blizz sorc.
I mean you post is confusing as hell. What are you talking about with 10%? There is no such thing as 10% effectivness currently.
If monster has 100+ resist, your conviction and lower resist for example is penalized with 1/5 effectivness so where are you getting 10%???, Infinity has -85% right? so if monster has 100 resist, its - (85/5) so -17%, monster ending at 83% resist and then it can be lowered by - To enemy resist which has full effect without penalization.
And here we have your proposition:
So effect of your suggestion would be that you nerfed some builds to ground as they cant lower resist of enemies significantly enough to deal some damage because 10% of your damage only is freaking low. Also facets and other items with -enemy res would be useless for most builds as you made enemies immune to resist reduction effects.
zax…10-15% is about what ur doing now to mobs that are original immune, even if u break the immunity.
Except you dont because if you have cold mastery or - enemy monster res, it goes more down without any kind of penalization.
This is correct. It also explains why -Res% from facets and whatnot are so powerful after the breaking from Infinity is applied. Because Conviction brings a monster from say 110% down by 85/5 = -17 → so 93% res. Meaning if you deal 100 damage you instead deal 7 damage. If you then add a single -5% facet you lower the res from 93% -5 = 88%. That might not feel like a lot 93 → 82 who cares? But now the 7 damage you did before (from your 100 damage spell) becomes 12 damage, which is almost double your damage.
Let me help you understand. On average, mobs that are immune are around 115-120 resists, sometimes even higher than that, with the ability to reach as high as 190 in very weird circumstances…but assuming the average. That means to break them, assuming your effects are only worth 20%, you need to break a bare minimal of 80-85 res, at 20% effectiveness. you need to reduce them by 80-85, just to break the immunity, which is the equivalent of a level 11 conviction aura. And even after that, your reduction is still only worth 20%. So lets say you have a level 12 conviction aura on your infinity. Boom, broken. 95%. Now what?
4 5% light facets? that’s 20%…but at 20% effectiveness, you only broke 4 more %. now you’re at 91%. Griffons? We’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it’s a perfect 20%. That’s still only another 4% it actually lowers it, putting you at 87 total effectiveness, hence the 10-15%. So you’re actually still only doing 10-15% effectiveness right now…
Yet you’re on the forums here saying that that % would be horrible damage, when in reality it’s what every sorc does when they’re at their PEAK of their gear…and they struggle a grand total of 0 with only 15% of their damage. It just shows you don’t realize how overpowered your class actually is…but you’d actually be losing a skiller to put this in its place, so you’d probably actually end up breaking even or even losing damage in my originally proposed scenario.
Now admittedly, I can say that my original suggestion you linked is clearly not enough considering the charms are supposed to provide a buff, and not just keep things pretty much exactly the same, which is why someone mentioned the problem that my suggestion would render infinity almost useless, so that’s why I then later in the thread about 2 posts down, proposed a 50% lock instead of a 90% lock.
As far as cold goes, it’s still the same scenario. CR gives you a bigger -res buff, but you no longer have infinity helping u, so you end up ROUGHLY around the same vacinity of REALIZED -res after the penalty.
This isn’t the way it works current in game. Live right now. What people seem to be confused by, is we don’t know if you are making improper claims about the live game - or trying to invent some new “ReactionTime.0 Patch”
In game right now there are essentially 3 “Layers” of resist removal:
- Conviction Aura
- Lower Resistance Curse
- Sum of: All Facets, Gear, and Cold Master -X% Resist
Each of those layers is “taxed” at 1/5 effectiveness IF the monster is still immune when it is applied. So let’s say you have:
- Conviction Aura (at -85% from infinity)
- Lower Resistance Curse (from your buddy with level 30~ish at -66%)
- Sum of: All Facets, Gear, and Cold Master -X% Resist (and let’s say you have a -30% from the sum of this for fire)
You have a target with 120% Fire resist and they are Immune.
- Your merc gets in range the 85% is TAXED to -17%. 120 → 103 = Still immune.
- Your buddy zaps em with Lower resist. -66% TAXED to -13. 103 - 13 → 90% (Broken)
- Your 30% from your gear is UNTAXED. So 90 → 60%
And again a 90% to 60% reduction is MASSIVE for damage increase. You go from dealing 10 damage per 100 to 40 damage per 100 thats a 400% damage increase.
I believe this portion to be incorrect, and have a really lengthy explanation involving the reverse engineering project that happened about 10 years ago, but like you said, we’re not sure. They presented it completely differently though. The files are still on github if you wanted to look at em.
I’m going to go off of what those files showed me until evidence appears. It would be nice if they just released the algorithm’s so we could actually understand it without question.
But I see what angle you’re coming at it from and I get why your numbers are different than mine. Unfortunately, we’ll never know unless someone busts into single player old school d2, custom mods a character to do say only 50k light damage, then plays with resist modifiers in the game. That’s pretty much the only way to know for sure without having the genuine code in front of us.
This has been reverse engineered from the single-player code. It has been this way since before D2 had an “:R” and we have no reason to believe it’s not this way now (even though technically on bnet the damage calculations are done server-side, for good reason).
EDIT:
You can also play around and see for yourself on d2planner. Set the enemy as against “Lister the Tormentor” (on Hell he has 120 fire res) with a level 30 Lower Res (-65) and Level 12 Conviction (-85) exactly like the example above. Then play around with the facet gear and you’ll see your firebolt damage change precisely as I outlined above. You can even see the enemy fire resistance if you hover over the Fire bolt damage and it tracks to what I was outlining. I even saved a profile with that set up for you… but I can’t post links. Profile ID is d2planner/aw01066b if you can figure out how to get to it by manipulating the url.
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I dont think you understand how - to enemy res works dude and you base your suggestion based on wrong info.
As i already explained to you, - enemy res stat works fully once you break immunity.
4 facets is not -4%, its -20%, griffon is not -4%, its -20%… So your calculation is wrong.
Its not 95-4-4= 87, its actualy 95-20-20= 55% resist left on monster.
This is true but but also a bit misleading the way you put it. ONLY in the case of facets does it work that way. If you have LR & Conviction on a mob, where LR would be sufficient to break it, conviction would not then get 100% effectiveness. Conviction and LR are added together before any immunities break and only ever work at 20% capacity on immune mobs, even if it would only take 1 or the other to be strong enough to break it. Your chart didn’t really touch on that, but kind of implies it by putting it in a 3-step process, rather than the 2 it actually uses in those scenarios.
Facets are the ONLY thing you can stack on top of this, but facets are incapable of completing the immunity break. That means that if you drop a mob down to 101, and have a 5% -res facet, the immunity wont break. Once the immunity is broken, facets and only facets gain full effectiveness.
Further, Cold Mastery USED TO BE calculated before auras and LR, but was incapable of breaking an immunity by itself, so unfortunately when dealing with cold immune mobs, cold mastery was actually worth 0, because even after you break the immunity, the cold mastery reduction was already calculated in, at a total of zero.
This was before the changes they made in 2021, where they changed cold pierce, but it renders almost every single existing cold immunity breaking guide incorrect to date.
So you’re kind of both right.
If sunder charms are here to stay – make them 75% resistance and “cannot be reduced further”.
That’s a compromise everyone can live with.
95% but “cannot be reduced further” is also acceptable, but in that case, a lot of spells and skills should probably be dual-damage: A selection of spells from each tree should be physical or magical.
Like: Fire elemental should deal half fire half physical.
Inferno could be given an increasing portion magic damage.
Meteor could have half it’s impact damage physical – and fireball could cause conflagration; An increasing physical damage from it’s meteor synergy
Assassin’s traps should be diversified so that she can have a pair of fire AND lightning traps.
…
And sunder charms should be added to summons’ inventories.
I see where your trying to go with this, but it wouldn’t work at 75%. that’s way to ridiculously low. Plus, it would ruin Conviction, Lower Resist, Cold Mastery, and a handful of runewords and legendaries in a blink.
A perhaps, better way, is to slightly tweak how the charm works. Maybe “Monsters are reduced to a maximum of 50% X elemental resist. You are reduced to a maximum of 50% X elemental resist.” sort of thing.
But honestly, all this is a pipe dream, the only thing that MIGHT get fixed is summons and pets might and mercs wearing things like “Obedience” might work for you and vice versa. And that’s long overdue.
as long as u could still break immunties the normal way and stuff have full efftiveness with facets,
and they got rif ot the bs -resists from melee and magic, this is a possible workaround but its still more work than just removing immunties in a better non completly convoluted and ignorant way
I’m sorry? What is the normal way to break unbreakable immunities? There really only is one way, and that’s super exclusive to infinity. Perhaps if Voice of Reason and the like worked on mercenaries, it would be a fair system. Maybe Infinity could be ALL elements and maybe VoR and Obedience could target a single immunity. But even IF, you’d still have to a) fix that particular bug and b) rebalance a metric ton of monster resistances. Blizzard ain’t got time for that.
Are you sure you know what these words mean? Perhaps you mean “simplistic”. These charms are nothing if not straight forward. Immunities themselves are convoluted. That much everyone could agree on.
im not sure why im wasting my time responding to you… but…
really?
first off i have no idea where this “voice of reason” stuff is coming from.
you don’t need to re-balance" infinity, or any monster resistances.
removing immunties and making monsters 95% resistant is different from removing immunties and making monsters have zero resistance. which is effectively what they are doing now, for all element except physical and magic.
removing immunties is different than " removing all monster resistances"
the way it sundering charms will work is that fire light cold and poison, there is no " 95% resist. or -75 character resistances
they all have facets, they all have infinity or lower resist. ( except rabies but that still isn’t viable)
and they can all get any resistance back with charms, salvation, or flicking flame
meanwhile physical, gets 95% resist because have have no facets are are completely reliant low AR merc with low proc chances that “hopefully” attack the correct enemy.
and we lose 25 DR? rofl
bone necro and all physical classes are completely screwed over by this change blasting open the already horrendous gap between melee and physical clear speed.
also. just because you ( and for that matter blizzard), seem utterly incapable of figuring out how to remove immunties in a simple way that doesn’t completely ruin game balance… doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
it doesn’t mean other people have already figured it out.
you don’t need to rework resistances… or items, or make new items…
i have made multiple posts going over how this can quite easily be done.
and yes there is no way to do without widening the melee and caster gap a bit simply because melee doesn’t have facets or AOE, but you CAN do it without blasting it into the next dimension