Solution to whirlwind - how to make everyone happy and keep game mechanics consistent and open for more fun options

General Discussion
21

Heh, you lads are contemplating how to make WW more optimal, I’m not even at the point where it’s viable :slight_smile:

So yeah, account’s young, gear’s mediocre at best, but there’s a core problem much more serious than how to punch harder;

Sustaining the damn thing. Yeah, longer spins, get some mana leech, but hell diff has a steep penalty on that.
Even so, on good enemies, it’d work allright, but a bunch of monsters are non-leechable - especially hell act V- , while a bunch more merrily burns away a barb’s mana pool in a hit or two, and they’re never alone, and hit frequently.
Just today, on a short walk on the road from the Cold Plains WP to the Burial Grouns, I’ve ran into four elite packs, all with mana burn.
Pop a potion on them, or on bossfights, get to spin once or twice, then it’s back to Concentrate or basic attack when even the last 2 mp is gone…

It was so bad, I just went back to the build I started with; Smacking down individual enemies one by one with sinergy boosted DS attacks, as they become free at Slvl 9…

I’d say forget changing WW, rather make every monster leechable, cap out how many % of MP can a player lose to mana burn, and maybe even ease up a bit on the difficulty penalty to leech.

22

Manaburn is pain sometimes. Damage goes to mana can help, large mana pool with battle orders and some mana grand charms (like 50 mana + smth) if you are really poorly geared.
You can whirl long or short and keep a distance where only 1 mob can hit you at the time or even no one if you have good reach (halberd, pike).
You can drink mana pots but not rejuv pots because mana pots fills gradually.
Let the merc tank those mana Burn hits. You can howl minions.
And yes, its not optimal to use always ww, Berserk for stoneskinned (Apart from phis immunes)
Better gear and level is what makes it easier no magic trick there for barb. Not always a piece of cake espessially self found.

23

Yes

I want to WW w a reapers toll
Not meta, not the most effective at all
Do i have 2 griefs and it does way better?
Yes.
BUT FUN.

But nice to have a 2h viable!

24

I think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with 2-H weapons in general is it’s too dependent on IAS. I think the developers should make 2-H weapons hit slower, but hit like a Mack Truck.

Forget the faster frames and breakpoint nonsense, just increase base damage by 3-5X across the board for 2-H weapons. Obviously, I’m just throwing out numbers, but the end goal would be to make 2-H weapons deal vastly superior damage vs. 1-H weapons.

25

Yes that would be lovely (qustion about how much to increase base damage). I also like the charm of 2handed weapons. Unfortunately speed is the king for efficiency eh. Do you too hate crushing blow mechanic and the (ab)use of it?

26

not sure what the big deal is about barb being op- 3 of the current top classess can crush everything in hell with max players. Everything is op or near op while Barb is a literal piece of garbage to play. His only use is as a bo sidekick and its pretty pathetic this has gone on for so long. These changes are inept and 100% useless for the enjoyment of a class that has 3 builds that single target.

27

2 handed weapons need a significant damage buff - they are not just weak for whirlwind, but for pretty much everything, buffing 2 handed weapon damage will fix 2 handed whirlwind too

1 Like
28

Agreed, this could probably be a quick update buffing 2-H weapon damage across the board (3 to 5X) and have community test the change. Afterall, this is the purpose of the PTR.

29

I dont agree that it would solve everything. Buffing 2handed is needed ofc, but it helps all 2 handed. You would need to also put 2handed ww on par with fury. Look at fury wolf dmg and ar modifiers and ww modifiers knowing that ww has not any advantage over it since 2.4.3 (slow) and heavy disandvanteges (no pots and procs). Dw ww still has speed with 2grief but 2handed is very bad now.

30

Well, this would be a good starting point to buff all 2-H weapons across the board, test it in PTR, and gather community feedback. The developers could roll out that update and start working to fix WW next. I think 2-H weapons is a systemic problem, and should be fixed first.

31

and ww always last in queue :joy:

1 Like
32

Yes. You have to fix systemic issue first, before you tackle a singular problem such as WW.

33

What i dont get is why we dont just use the ladder mechanic to instantly fix this. Rollback WW back to classic for ONE ladder season - at the end of that ladder, fix as neccessary.

Worst case scenario, is that for ONE ladder season, WW is too strong. People will still play Sorcs.

2 Likes
34

No, it was not. My opinion is that is not a clear “nerf”, because it is also a buff. I always write that lots more setups became stronger, and only a few top tier setups became weaker. To me, there is much more fun to be had BEFORE reaching the top tier setup; once I reach it, the game’s almost over. That’s 1 of the reasons why I keep saying that the change was great.

It’s not fine when you equipped “increased attack speed” gloves and don’t get increased attack speed.

It’s not fine that for some reason whirlwind was scaled in larger steps “only on even frames”.

It’s not fine that better half of the weapons was completely awful with whirlwind.

It’s not fine that was the only weird attack that doesn’t get accelerated by fanaticism and slowed by holy freeze.

For a game to keep on living, obtaining new players is one of the most important things. And older obscure whirlwind mechanics were a clear detrement to that.

Howl > Summons (maybe not in all situations, but in many). Battle Orders > Any other defensive skill (salvation is a close 2nd). Natural Resistance > Auric shields resist mod.

Druids have massive life pools, but they have tiny life potions… and oaks sage can just die randomly (unlike timed BO), so on the life front barbs win.

You know what’s the best way to do dirt cheap ubers? Have a howling barb tagging along with your cheap smiter. NOTHING beats it. Maybe you can try an assassin doing mind blasts and cloak of shadows, but she won’t give you a BO, and she won’t unblock bridges in furnace of pain like barb with leap or taunt.

And on top of that there is war cry, taunt and battle cry. I was playing a barb some time ago with some friends. We did baal walks, i.e. clearing WSK2, 3 and throne. Friends were playing a fire druid with summons and a fanatic zealot. They were really surprised how easy i made the game by using and abusing these 3 skills.

And dual wielding’s also a unique barb ability. Noone else can just get an off hand 180 MF booster. And item find that for some reason is “besides” :slight_smile:

35

I’ve been playing 2 very similar barbs through normal. One in D2R and one in D2L. The WW changes are not a buff. They have very similar gear, and the D2L one kills slightly faster. Like maybe 15% faster. If I could get 60 IAS on the D2R barb to reach the 6 frame bp, I think it’d be even.

36

your ias glove dont matter because the ias requirements for ww is 50% more 1 hand 0 base ask around 63 ias now compare 35ias before mean your glove is already gone and useless anyway 35%+20% = 55% ias, with your glove you are still short of 8 %ias lmao

let just say is wrost today 2 hand ww is stuck with 5 frame with very low dps around 20k for the best build compare 2 hand fury druid run too 78k dps again no sense what your saying

again some no sense is 1000% worst now 1 hand +20 weapon need 125% ias now explaine me how the crap you will get 125ias from your gear and not lost dps lol , wtf you smoking compare before all you need is 55 ias , also a IK only ask 70IAS MEAN 2 SHEAL AND YOUR GO TOO GO ,now for 2,4,3 PATCH YOU NEED 125 IAS AND YOU LOST DPS AND RUN TOO 5 FRAME

again you have your wishlist not using a phase blade, my barb SLOW DOWN SO MUCH he get stuck and die making all other weapon in the game useless , AGAIN NO SENSE LET all REROLL CASTER , you have 0 clue about playing the game , better you stick with theory and number

fact you have all your wishlist IN 2,4,3 and ww never feel so weak and useless and not fun anymore

right from the start

2hand ww is dead at 5 frame , also with all slower weapon because the 50% more ias requirements compare the old formula ,
mean your character is limited to ias gear ,
sorry dude you are a noob

37

Its almost like classic Whirlwind wished ALL classes to have an AOE option - but for some reaon the barbarian is absolutely not allowed to have one at all, which is fine, as long as they can kill single entities quicker than anyone else when specced to do as such.

38

That’s a fool’s errand charley222. Simple waste of energy to argue like that considering that its not even feedback for devs on changes (Do they read it?) It all comes to popularity of the class. It is the players right.

Sorry to say that but, those “arguments” are classic derailing arguments decomposing ww into prime factors and sticking to whatever convinient to defend the will i.e. Barb can not have good DPS.

1 Like
39

i already give some very easy feedback too understand

the dev make the fury druid a lot more easier to play , removing the ias restriction from the weapon and allowing ias from the gear

but sadly for the barbarian they do the same but the exception of asking a requirements of 80% more ias for ww :weary: :-1: back them in 1.14 or 2.4.0 a base 0 weapon ask 35 ias for the ww break point too 4 frame so make 35 + 80% = 63% for 1 hand to reach 4 frame and for +20 base weapon is a increase of 130% ias 55ias + 130% = 126,5 , 4 frame are 125ias

so my question too the dev why the barbarian need a IAS penality OF 80% too 130% knowing the barbarian have 0 ias BONUS in is skill tree AND THE druid have 0 IAS increase requirements for FURY ALSO KNOWING druid benefit OF THE IAS FROM Werewolf THIS IS JUST NO SENSE

i also believe the dev working on d2r i have 0 knowlege about the game

this is my feedback remove this extra 80% to 130% , ias penality the barb have , because the druid have any

why the barb ?

40

I would add that if whirlwind is considered normal melee skill with similar IAS rules (including skill ias modifiers) determining number of attack attempts there is absolutely no justification to leave such constraints as not allowing to drink potions during whirl animation or that ww hits dont proc, which were always derived from whirlwind being a “spell” - whirl to destination with fixed attack frequency.