Season 5 - Buff Low Level Melee Runewords

General Discussion
21

At the very least, let us test this change in the PTR and we can better evaluate the impact to the act 3 merc utilizing insight in a shield.

1 Like
22

Regardless of the implementation of insight on the shield, the base strength/strength per level would allow for at least spirit to be used without sacrificing other gear to bump the strength. Also, I think it would solve a lot of issues for lack of use of 2h staves if the iron wards could equip them

23

Memory, leaf, insight, and of course obsession would see much more use, and the list of great unique staves that get passed over for player use due to the overpowered combo of dual spirit.

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24

Insight in shield thats just bad idea. Simply as that.

It would have to have different mods for Shield alone to be somehow balanced.
Like keeping the Meditation aura as sole purpose of Insight rw, but removing 35%fcr and 200-260% enhanced damage. Then it would not be so overpowered yet still BiS for its low level cost.

I still dont like the idea, because its another Sorc buffing item, as she currently cant have Spirit in shield early levels - she would use Insight shield instead as long as it has Meditation aura.

25

Agreed, thatā€™s why in the OP you can see the different mods listed in the note as shown belowā€¦

Insight
Ral Tir Tal Sol
Required Level: 27
Polearms, Staves, Bows, Crossbows
Level 12-17 Meditation Aura When Equipped
+35% Faster Cast Rate
+200-260% Enhanced Damage
+9 To Minimum Damage
180-250% Bonus to Attack Rating
Adds 5-30 Fire Damage
+75 Poison Damage Over 5 Seconds
+1-6 To Critical Strike
+5 To All Attributes
+2 To Mana After Each Kill
23% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Can now be made in Spears and Shields (note shield version will have enhanced defense in lieu of enhanced damage, fire resist will replace fire damage, poison resist will replace poison damage and attacker takes damage will replace minimum damage)
26

6 critical strike is like 45% DS which is still nuts.

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27

Evade on a shield in place of critical strike would be better flavored on a shield.

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28

I completely disagree it would ā€˜just be a bad ideaā€™. It would allow for a different option besides spirit. The fact spirit is so good makes it the ONLY option for any character that utilities it. The only exceptions that are slotted in place of spirit are unique builds with unique items on paladins and necros like HoZ and trangs, thatā€™s it. The rest of the options arenā€™t close to equatable because they cost a minimum of 2 high runes to make.

Insight on shield would allow for this to take spirits place, and it would diversify merc weapon choice, make the act 3 merc viable, and it would change up the PvP/Pvm meta with different resistance options instead of just gearing for the lack of fire res spirit has.

I donā€™t see how diversifying options in the game would be a bad thing. In terms of access, itā€™s the same base as spirit, and a negligible difference in rune cost to make. The only thing that would change is that instead of your merc needing to wear it for meditation, you can, and they can be built for better damage than what insight provides.

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29

How about +1-6 To Dodge replacing Critical Strike on Insight to be different than Hustle?..

Insight
Ral Tir Tal Sol
Required Level: 27
Polearms, Staves, Bows, Crossbows
Level 12-17 Meditation Aura When Equipped
+35% Faster Cast Rate
+200-260% Enhanced Damage
+9 To Minimum Damage
180-250% Bonus to Attack Rating
Adds 5-30 Fire Damage
+75 Poison Damage Over 5 Seconds
+1-6 To Critical Strike
+5 To All Attributes
+2 To Mana After Each Kill
23% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Can now be made in Spears and Shields (note shield version will have enhanced defense in lieu of enhanced damage, fire resist replaces fire damage, poison resist replaces poison damage, attacker takes damage replaces minimum damage and +1-6 To Dodge replaces Critical Strike)
1 Like
30

I dont like Spirit shield. Endgame rw shield basically for free runes. Everyone discards any Unique, Set shields because Spirit.

Same would happen with Insight shield. ā€œDiversityā€ - Insight or Spirit. ā€œGreatā€ diversity.

Even worse was when some guys made posts about allowing Insight in swords ā€œjust to make Act3 merc viableā€. Making basically Insight a huge weapon for melee barbs,paladins for no runes basically. Not adding diversity, but removing it alltogether. Progress would be: 1. make Insight in Normal weapon. 2. make Insight in Exceptional Weapon. 3. make Insight in Elite weapon. The end.

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31

I agree spirit is too powerful, but itā€™s a thing, and thereā€™s no taking it back, itā€™s been around for over a decade, itā€™s not going anywhere. The only thing that can be done now is to either make more options available to continue to allow the game to evolve, or to let it become stagnate.

Spirit Or insight instead of just Spirit is literally twice the diversity, and itā€™s a lot more diversity for merc gearing if itā€™s available on shields.

I would agree insight in swords would be too much. A shield doesnā€™t really shift the pace of the game though, at the point a 4os monarch is available for spirit shield, Act 1 and Act 2 mercs have an insight in their weapon for easily the trek from nightmare and through hell, and then it takes 30+ more levels and hundreds of hours of farming for them to change to a different weapon. (not counting insight on normal, exceptional, and elite weapons)

Maybe if insight on a shield had a different stat from FCR, like FHR/block speed then it would be more balanced as a choice from spirit, but meditation being a mana based buff would make it far less used overall, but at least provide different utility for mana hungry melee builds, but Iā€™d still use it in a lot of instances even with the FCR stat changed.

Allowing it on a shield as it is doesnā€™t change anything except make the merc more efficient in the late game until a Faith/Infinity/Reaperā€™s Toll is available. It would open up some more of the runewords and uniques for polearms/bows to be used on the merc instead of them just being an insight stat stick. Iā€™d love to not lose meditation aura in order to throw a kuko-shakaku with a wisdom on my act 1 merc. Iā€™d love to throw an obedience on my act 2 merc. Iā€™d love to use the act 3 merc without needing to first make a phoenix, dragon, or dream. It would be nice to wear the shield myself just so I could utilize the act 5 more, and use the plethora of great unique swords that otherwise donā€™t see use. This is all because to lose the meditation aura is more impactful than gearing the merc to be more helpful. More items would be more desirable to gear yourself and them. Itā€™s a lot more diversity than just ā€˜replacingā€™ spirit.

2 Likes
32

Iā€™m not totally sold on Insight in Shields either, but Insight or Spirit is better diversity than ā€œSpiritā€ā€¦needing 4OS means youā€™d still have the STR check to not be able to get it until end game, so youā€™d likely still use Rhyme or Uniques/Rares during your progression like now.

TBH though, like melee barbs needs the buff anyway. By the time you get to Exceptional and Elite bases, youā€™ve now got options like Oath and Unbending Will that would likely be better options than Insight for Barb progression, but agreed they are more expensive. But youā€™d end up probably layering Hustle/Oath/Unbending Will in depending on what bases you could find. As it is Insight in an Exceptional Polearm isnā€™t a bad way to get through NM as a WW barb, but the janky way the masteries are setup means you may be burning an extra respec over it, which sucks.

Not like itā€™s even easy to get a 4OS sword in Normal, you likely have to burn a Larzuk from cows or an Act 5 find. Not sure letting Barbs/Zealots do that for lvl 27 is any worse than casters getting to make Spirit at lvl 24 and then keeping that until they get HOTO (with maybe an Occy step in between if Sorc, or some GG orb). Insight Sword is still 3 levels later AND has to remake in better bases to keep up, Spirit doesnā€™t.

If the concern is more RW options vs. Uniques/Sets being in a bad place, I can definitely agree, but I think the Uniques/Sets need to be brought up to a level of being competitive instead. Plus the issue with Uniques/Set is that youā€™re really unlikely to find them in a play through when you actually would want to use them. Not sure how to really fix that without re-scaling drops somehow, which I assume most people would be against. If you could make them more common in Norm and NM and less common in Hell, but keep the end game weapon drops from being more common than now (fewer items in the pool if they werenā€™t dropping in Hell as much) then that might work?

1 Like
33

Agree, adding Insight to shields does offer more build diversity. Heck, I would even like to see Stone available in shields as well.

34

To make melee better generally and not locking it behind one or two item choices (Grief, Mosaic, etc and also this new Insight idea) is to buff melee weapon base dmg by lets say 15-30%. Maybe not Normal version. But Exceptional and Elite versions. Or Exceptional by 15%. Elite by 30%. It needs to be adjusted but it is the right way to buff melee.

It makes Grief weaker compared to other endgame weapon rws, which is a bonus side effect.

3 Likes
35

I agree Iā€™ve said the same things elsewhere on the forum.

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36

15% across all tiers imo. Most melee builds that work in normal are ones that generally ignore base weapon damage anyways (and 2h normal weapons are pretty bad). That 15% would improve a bit normal 2handers over the lower base damage one handers in normal.

On a maul 15% would translate into a 4-6 damage increase. In the best case scenario thatā€™s like a 12-24 damage increase on a bone snap (probably the best normal tier unique melee weapon). Which is an improvement but not one that will shake up normal difficulty.

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37

Agreed, you will have no argument from me.

38

When I think about general 15% across all tiers it comes to my mind that I had no trouble playing Barbarian in Normal difficulty with Normal version weapons.

I think Normal difficulty is adjusted adequatly to Normal tier weapons damage.

I personally would not change that. But on the other hand 15% is not a significant increase and it could help in game with multiple players settings.
Best way forward would be to be able to test it in PTR and decide based on that.

I hope there will be a season where true melee characters relying on weapon dmg gets buffed to be great to play.

39

What do you guys think about adding a few low level melee armor runewords to the mix? To start, Myth is arguably the worst runeword in the game. I recommend replacing useless chance to cast howl/taunt with bonus to mana per kill and small bonus to CBā€¦

Myth

Hel - Amn - Nef
Required Level: 25
Armor
3% To Cast Level 1 Howl When Struck
10% To Cast Level 1 Taunt On Striking
+2 To Barbarian Skill Levels
+30 Defense Vs. Missile
Replenish Life +10
Attacker Takes Damage of 14
Requirements -15%

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Add +3-5 to Mana After Each Kill
    • Add +10% Chance of Crushing Blow
    • Remove 3% To Cast Level 1 Howl When Struck
    • Remove 10% To Cast Level 1 Taunt On Striking

Lionheart is pretty solid, but think it could benefit from a modest bump in ED. Also, expanding to shields would be a good option for stat boosting and resistance for mid-level defensive charactersā€¦

Lionheart

Hel - Lum - Fal
Required Level: 41
Armor
+20% Enhanced Damage
Requirements -15%
+25 To Strength
+10 To Energy
+20 To Vitality
+15 To Dexterity
+50 To Life
All Resistances +30

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Can now be made in Shields
    • Change Enhanced Damage from 20% to 50%

For Smoke, I think buffing minus light radius could be a fun addition. Also, buffing defense vs. missile fits the theme of arrows missing and hitting only smokeā€¦

Smoke

Nef - Lum
Required Level: 37
Armor
+75% Enhanced Defense
+280 Defense vs. Missiles
All Resistances +50
20% Faster Hit Recovery
Level 6 Weaken (18 Charges)
+10 To Energy
-1 To Light Radius

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Change Light Radius from -1 to -4
    • Change Defense vs. Missiles from +280 to +8-792 (+8.00 Per Clvl)
40

Except when anyone plays normal they only use flails and not 2h swords. In fact normal tier 2h swords are some of the worst in the game.

1 Like