Patch 2.4 Martial Arts Skills - Concerns and Suggestions

Assassin
1
MrLlama Dev Interview, Assassin changes video

I love the ideas mentioned for changes to the martial arts tree but I wanted to highlight some concerns with it and give some ideas:

1. Can we add a charge counter to our skills:

being able to have full control of each charge is going to be nice, but there are moments when it’s hard to see exactly how many charges are swirling around you. Maybe if a counter was added to both the Charging and Finishing skills, similar to the ammo counter for arrows/throwing potions, it would greatly help with charge management. For example:

Cobra Strike would show 0-3 on it, depending on how many are stacked
Tiger Strike would show 0-3 on it, depending on how many are stacked
Dragon Tail would show 0-6 because of the collection of charges from the other two skills

if this was done, it might as well be done for our Trap skills as well. When used in conjunction with the new “Display Active Skill Bindings” setting, you would easily be able to see how many charges you have on your martial arts skills, and or how many of what type of traps you have down; ex. 2x death sentry, 3x lightning sentry.

2. Next Delay frames will mess up Phoenix Strike's dps:

www. theamazonbasin .com/wiki/index.php?title=Missile#Next_delay

Next Delay makes it so a monster becomes invincible to projectiles for a varying amount of frames. In regards to Phoenix Strike, both the Chain Lightning and Chaos Orb have a 4 frame next delay on them. This mean if you spend all 3 phoenix charges in rapid successions, odds are the lightning storm and frozen orbs are going to overlap and one will cancel the others dmg. Ex. everything hit by frozen orb will be immune to the lightning storm’s bolts effectively making it a wasted charge spend.

Beyond that, if played frame perfectly, you can now launch ~1.79 Lightning Storms, or Frozen orbs per second, but Frame Delay is going to get in the way making some of these charges a total waste of a spend.

I’d really like to see the next delay removed. It’ll fix this issue and also increase the dmg of frozen orb, bringing it more in line with the other two charges dmg. At the moment, cold is definitely weaker than the other two charges by a lot because of Next Delay stopping monsters from being it by multiple bolts spawned from the same orb, and that’s not even taking into consideration you need to stack 3 charges to use it at the moment.

3. None of the charges for Phoenix Strike Benefit from +% elemental skill dmg:

as mentioned in the title, none of the charges for PS benefit from elemental damage because they aren’t considered “you”. Not sure how you could fix this, but it’d be quite helpful.

4. Increase the radius of Fist of Fire:

Fist of Fire could be much more viable and in line with Claws of Thunder and Blades of Ice if it had a similar dmg radius. At the moment, it is only 2.66 yards, where BoI is at 4.0 yards, and CoT’s nova is at 8.0 yards, and the bolts can go well over 16+ yards. Bringing FoF up to at least 4 yards would be really helpful; and maybe even consider increasing both FoF and BoI to 5→8 yards, would really help both. Maybe the radius could increase as you invest points into them, leading up to a max of 5→8 yards

As it stands, CoT and Phoenix Strike are so much stronger because they have the capabilities to reach out and hit a lot more enemies than BoI or FoF, making them easier to use and more powerful.

5. Add an AoE Poison dmg mechanic to Cobra Strike and make it synergize with Venom in some way:

Maybe make it so Cobra strike not only steals resources, but also releases a cloud of gas and poison nova. You could make venom boosts its dmg by maybe providing some sort of synergy like - enemy poison resistance, or + poison dmg to the skill.

Charge 1 =
+% Life Steal, + XX psn dmg over 0.4 seconds (so venom doesn’t overwrite)

Charge 2 =
+% Life/Mana Steal, + XX psn dmg over 0.4 sec
Release 4 yard Poison Cloud dealing XX psn dmg over 2 sec

Charge 3 =
+% Life/Mana Steal, + XX psn dmg over 0.4 sec
Release Poison Nova dealing XX psn dmg over 2 sec

Charge 1 will work well with venom vs single targets, Charge 2 provides some up close AoE with the small 4 yard poison cloud and since it’s AoE we don’t need to worry about venom overwriting it, and Charge 3 releases the necro’s poison nova providing some long range AoE

6. Make Cobra Strike and Tiger Strike Swing both claws per click:

In their current form, these skills do not require a lot of control and would be better off functioning like the other skills where 1 click swings both claws, potentially building 2 stacks in quick succession. Only Phoenix Strike requires really precise charge management.

7. Next Delay frames could be removed from Claws of Thunder for more dps:

www. theamazonbasin .com/wiki/index.php?title=Missile#Next_delay

Next Delay frames also affect both the Nova and Charged Bolts spawned by CoT, at the moment they can cancel each other out, but due to the difference in travel speed of the two skills, its not a huge issue. It wouldn’t hurt to remove the Next Delay frames on this to help make the Charged Bolts deal really good single target dmg.

8. Claws of Thunder's 2nd and 3rd charge don't benefit from +/- Lightning Dmg:

only the first charge works with +/- % Lightning dmg on gear, fixing this for the other two would be very beneficial.

9. Can you make the Shadow Warrior spawn with Boots:

at the moment the shadow warrior can never spawn with boots on, effectively meaning she doesn’t have a weapon when she uses her kick skills. Both claws deal an avg of 14 dmg, so I think she should spawn with Light Plated Boots, which also have an avg 14 dmg on them.

10. Both the Shadow Warrior and Master cannot use Weapon block:

Neither of the shadows can take advantage of your weapon block skill, if this was fixed it would greatly increase their survivability.

3 Likes
2

Just some ideas I had, not sure how OP/viable they are

What about giving Tiger Strike an AOE damage on charge 3.
Carbot brought up Cobra leeching from everything including non-leech ales.

Moving to the other skills
Blade fury needs the 1 sec delay taken out.
Pathing on Blade Sentinel needs fixing
If they add synergies to these two, amazing.

Venom needs cleaning up. Stated damage and actual is way off. Not sure how this should end up.

2 Likes
3

Still not liking the idea of charge ups & finishers. Combination of lag/ping, reaction time, monster density making it impossible to see how many charges are being held, etc. can really screw with what charge you’d want to spend. For example,

Phoenix strike’s 2nd charge is lightning. With the proposed change in patch 2.4, if I want to use only* the 2nd charge, I have to use phoenix strike 2x, and finisher 1x, then phoenix strike 1x, then finisher 1x, then phoenix strike 1x, then finisher 1x.
** If my phoenix strike is on my right click, and regular attack on left, that would be R/R/L/R/L/R/L/R/L.

You can test how this proposed change will effect the martial arts tree by simply trying to use phoenix strike’s 1st charge only in the current d2r version. Try using phoenix strike’s meteor charge, and meteor charge only. It’s incredibly clunky and difficult. What would otherwise be a regular (for example) 2-attack-per-second series of hits your character performs, will be be 1-attack-per-second - because your eyes will be tearing up from trying to not overcharge or undercharge, and your hands will be shaking from having a borderline anxiety attack. You’ll find yourself being overly cautious to not over/under charge.
** You’ll constantly find yourself thinking you hit your target with phoenix, when you didnt; you’ll constantly find yourself thinking you hit the target with phoenix once, but you hit it twice; you’ll constantly find yourself thinking you used your finisher on the target, but you didnt, so you phoenix strike again, and now you’re at charge #2. And you torpedo your face to the monitor and get a new one by way of insurance fraud.

My 2cents:
** Just make all charge-up skills use up the charge immediately upon clicking. For example, if my phoenix strike is on my right click, and i just HOLD on to right click and nothing else, my character will simply perform meteor/lightning/cold/meteor/lightning/cold/etc.
** Remove “finishers” and replace them with other charge-up skills. Like pigeon strike; or moose knuckle; or tofu fists.

my.two.cents.

4

I know what you’re trying to say, and I some what agree, but you’re way over exaggerating it imo. It can be an issue at first, but it’s just part of learning how to play the spec efficiently:

watch the first 20 seconds of my video guide, I launch 4 meteors in rapid succession without issue, no wrong element. Same thing with Lightning Storm right after, I launch 3 storms, killing all enemies and end with 2 charges left, and on Normal Attack ready to release another storm. And right after that I take on infector with constant frozen orbs and not a single incorrect element release.

this can be an issue, and I did run into it while refining my Phoenix Sin’s play style, but there is an easy answer to that. Use your charge and release skill on the same click, and just switch between skills. Having the charge and release skill on the same click will interrupt accidental charge attempts, reducing how often you accidentally release the wrong charge. You can hold the mouse button down if you want, but clicking can help you develop a rhythm to control your charge up and release skills. Its part of the fun with the charge and release skills imo.

Also, this is a unique issue to Phoenix Strike only. All of the other elemental martial art skills don’t change elements when stacking to a higher or lower count of charges. I’d hate to see this mechanic gutted because of one skill having a higher ceiling requirement for precision.

Releasing the wrong element will be a reality of the spec, but that’s just part of how it plays. Learning how to properly control and release your elements, allows you to actually improve how well you can play the spec and can be rewarding. No 2 people will be of the exact same skill level with the phoenix sin and odds are someone new to the spec will be much worse than some with experience playing it. And that’s how it should be for some specs, imo.

Overall, I disagree, I ran into the issues you brought up, but with a bit of effort and thought it was possible to over come them. And for me, the things you’re complaining about are exactly why I like the martial arts skills. You don’t just mindlessly hold down Lightnign Fury or lightning and win, which can be fun too. You actually have to manage your skills and think about how you’re engaging enemies more. I wouldn’t want them to change charge and release mechanics

5

You use charge up skills on LMB and finishing moves on RMB.
MA is a finesse build that should have A LOT of AOE damage since you are tanking mobs.
Dragon Tail should just be straight fire AOE damage.
Charge 3 on FoF BoI CoT should also be AOE damage, so you can pair it with Dragon Tail.

1 Like
7

I was considering cloak of shadows. I would be nice if they increased the ‘radius’ or did something else to make it effect a bigger area or make it re-castable sooner. Quite a few time I will use it, kill everything that was effected by the ‘dim vision’ part of the skill. I then move along find another group that is not effected by the ‘dim vision’ part but my current cloak is still in effect so I can cast it and thus I can not shut the new group down.

3 Likes
8

I like dragon tail the way it is personally

1 Like
9

Ideas:

add a “slows target” effect to blade shield?

Reduce cool down of cloak of shadows

Scrap blade sentinel and replace it with an aoe slow skill like the demon hunter’s “caltrops” from diablo 3

I feel like the MA sin / hybrid sin has a unique capability to break free from the “spam my main skill”
Mindset that plagues 90% of d2 meta builds by improving the crowd control and positional components that it has.

Improve firelizard’s talons because we all love fire traps. Maybe add -enemy fire res so we can go wake of inferno / tiger strike + dragon tail?

1 Like
10

I think one of the big changes I’d love to see is add elemental % DMG increases to MA skills. I get why they don’t effect traps, but not being able to use any facet is really annoying when i want to build a MA Sin. I know you can increase venoms DMG with poison facet, so why not the MA skills?

Correction: % ELE DMG doesn’t seem to add to Phoenix but does add to other. I’m wanting it to be added to Phoenix

1 Like
11

I have played the martial arts Assassin during the weekend till level 80++,
mainly to prepare myselve for the patch and to get used to the playstyle.
So far in the past “the dragon talon assassin” or hybrid around that one was my preferred class and build always.

My experience (before patch)
COT (Lightning) is superior compared with Phoenix. This is mainly due to the fact that COT triggers all 3 charge effects at the same point in time compared to phoenix, which triggers exactly one effect, which is also hard to control.
After a while COT became my main attach, while Phoenix was my choice for the light immunes only (no infinity on merc).

The intended patch change to consume just one charge sounds great, but I need to play and test it. However I am wondering, if it would not make sense for Phonix to trigger all lower charges (similar to COT) as well.
Currently Phoneix feels so cumbersome and week compared to COT.

Example:
3 Charge ==> 2 Charge and triggers Ice , Lightning, Fire
2 Charge ==> 1 Charge and triggers Lightning, Fire
1 Charge ==> 0 Charge and triggers Fire

12

That wouldn’t help much because of next delay unfortunately, I mentioned it in point 2. Having all 3 spend together would just cause massive overlap, and Next Delay would make them cancel out each others damage. If they’d remove the next delay on Chaos Lightning and Frozen Orb it would work, but removing next delay would also buff CL and FO to the point they probably wouldn’t need to all release together imo. Their dmg would go through the roof without next delay, and maybe that’s what’s needed.

Also check out my guide on the phoenix sin, and maybe even try downloading the single player char to give it a try. Phoenix Sin can be a little cumbersome at first, but using Quick Cast Skills, and Normal Attack can help to make very fluid and consistent feeling gameplay.

I also used to use Claws of Thunder, it’s definitely my 2nd fav MA skill. Pair it with Tiger Strike and Dragon Tail and you get some insane hits. The knockback from the Dragon Tail can also allow a monster to be hit by all 3 charges, where typically they’d be immune to the charged bolts because of Next Delay. Also Tiger Strike + Dragon Tail in the current form can deal 50k dmg per kick, and now with it not spending all 3 charges, thats gonna be some serious fire power.
d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner/kw0106gc

13

Tiger Strike and Dragon Tail is an alternative, which I liked a lot before they introduced immunity. Unfortunately this combination is week against both physical and fire immun monsters … .

This time I focused on the dual wield elemental charge options around Phoenix and the alternatives and synergies, with either the dragon claw finisher or the dragon flight.

Playing through the hell content in solo worked pretty well with COT and Phoenix, but phoenix felt still clunky although the freeze effect is cool … .

14

good call, never considered that. The damage potential just seems so juicy

I’m hoping to get a video guide up soon about it, good use of mind blast, QCS, and hotkey assignment, and charge release skill choice can help a lot with this. It’s taken like 3 years of refining this spec for it finally really feel smooth and come together. I’m excited to experience these new changes, being able to use all the different elements at 1.79 aps is gonna fun.

Edit: finally got a chance to play the PTR. I really like the new changes for phoenix strike. I did a players 7 solo chaos run in ~6 minutes, but with that said. I will admit, it almost feels more clunky when trying to release lightning storm, but at least over stacking still results in a release lightning storm eventually. I’m going to have to mess around with dragon claw now, as much as it was 6 frames, guaranteed hit chance sounds really nice.

15

I’m hearing Dragon Talon will release all three charges with one kick once you get the kicks to 3. Dragon Claw is releasing 2 charges. Anyone confirm this?

Work can’t end soon enough…I want to play!

16

Dragon claw was definitely releasing two charges at a time. I confirmed that, not sure if intended? If I’m not mistaken it’s a mistake?

17

I can’t imagine it being a good thing, if your trying to control the release of a specific charge and DC drops two or DT drops them all…well I can see good and bad on each side.

18

What is the point of releasing two charges at once in Dragon Claw? These have a “next delay (0.16 seconds)”.

1 Like
19

So you might be happy with the change, I just tried a bunch of finishers in the test environment. After trying with the each finisher i liked Dragon Talon the best because it triggered all 3 levels at once, for everything. I had Phoenix, BoT, BoI, and FoF on and all 3 levels trigged with the DT. i only had 1 point (with + skills got 3 kicks), so looks like each kick will trigger a level. Hopefully this was intended and they keep it because it will really make it viable.

20

With some testing in ACT1 hell, I have to admit I like the behavior. It was surprising, but seems somehow logical :slight_smile: .

For the tests below I was using 2 claws in the first round.

Dragon Talon :
This triggers up to 3 effects, depending on the skill level of talon and the corresponding number of kicks (level 12 = 3kicks).
The combination of dragon talon and phoenix sounds promising, especially as this can be combined with crushing blow (e.g. with guli head, shoes) and enriches the kicksin playstlye. Definitly something to look into it.

Dragon Claw :
This triggers 2 effects, which seems to be logical as I had 2 claws in my hands, each hitting. I love the combination of ice and lightning, which is very close to what I have asked for in my post above.

Dragon Flight:
This triggers 1 effect, which is one kick.

Each trigger consumes one charge. I switched to COT(Lightning) and it bahaved in a similar manner. This is different on the live server.

From the combinations above dragon claw is my favorite choice for phoenix, which feels stronger and much more flexible than COT now.

However the good old kickse with Dragon Talon with Azure and Stormshield in combination with Phoenix is my preferred and personal choice, as there is absolut nothing she cant kill in a solo game. With 3 elements coming with phoenix she has decent AOE with crazy single target damage.

21

What do you guys think of having charge up skills passively give you 1 charge every 3 or 6 seconds? I find that in group play because MA assassin’s dmg is back loaded, mobs are often dead before I get to release my charges and I end up loosing my unused charges travelling to the next mob. It makes group play awkward. Passively gaining some charges can help front load some of that damage at the beginning of the fight and because it’s on a longer timer it will still be more efficient to charge up normally if your in a prolonged fight. So it won’t really change the style of gameplay much but just makes it smoother and lessens the demand on APM. It would Let MA sins compete with skills like lightning fury.