I’m getting tired of hearing about how these tweaks are in great places when in fact they do not compete with blizzard or lightning sorcs. They can’t touch hammerdin. I’m getting tired of this idea that the same meta we’ve had for over 10 years needs to remain that way. For the first 10 years there were real balance changes. That is the Diablo 2 I know.
If using hydras as a build is not as effective as blizzard or lightning, it is not in a good place. No matter how much you want to spin it to try and keep the meta the same.
9 Likes
sure, but I also wouldn’t want much power-creep.
I just want balance
7 Likes
That’s not entirely true. Builds can be good with out being S tier. We don’t need more S tier builds. We need less C and D tier builds.
6 Likes
I mean I don’t even mind having hammerdin and blizzard nerfed just to elevate other builds for a little while.
Zenji: But it’s silly to keep the current meta the exact same way forever. It makes no sense. If that takes nerfing S tier builds and elevating A and B’s to S, then that’s great. Let’s do that. But pretending subpar builds are in a good place, meanwhile saying hammerdin and blizzard sorceress are perfectly fine while doing laps around these builds, is laughable cope.
I personally wouldn’t be opposed to a nerf to Hammers and Blizzard, but something small. Just enough to note that they are on the top without heavily dethroning them.
Maybe like a mana cost increase or something small like that.
What I definitelly want is trash skills to be buffed and made good.
3 Likes
I mean I want completely unviable builds to become viable, sure, but if that is our only goal then all we are doing is creating novelties. Because the only true builds to play for min maxing are hammerdins and lightning sorc still. We’re not really changing anything. The game will play exactly the same as it has been for 10 years. Some people want that, and that’s their prerogative. But Diablo 2, to me, has meta changes like it did in the first 10 years. That is Diablo to me. And the only way to change a meta is to change the top S tier builds.
I would much rather see a few top skills/builds nerfed rather than more elevated to that same level.
I don’t think changing the meta just for the sake of change is ever a good idea. If you want a constantly rotating FoTM spec, there are games that do that. This is not that game.
The over exaggeration of how much better some specs are is a common thing on these forums. You know the Hell Meph kill time difference between Blizzard and several other Sorc builds early on in ladder? A few seconds, that’s it.
Even after the nerf, the Hydra build literally kills Hell Meph just 3-4 seconds slower than Blizzard in early ladder gear.
FoH’din, clears p1 Chaos faster than Hammerdin. It isn’t until players5 that Hammerdin is faster.
So saying, if a build isn’t S tier it’s not in a good place is hyperbole. And that doesn’t help anything.
3 Likes
What? Hammerdin has been king since 2004.
1 Like
I wouldn’t say this is changing the meta just for the sake of changing the meta. It’s a real problem to only have a select few builds that are all you can play in order to min max the game. I’d like that problem addressed. Why don’t we replace blizzard sorceress with hydras on S tier? There’s no reason not to do that other than people just like keeping things exactly the same. Keeping the same overpowered aspects and keeping the same underpowered aspects so they never change positions. I think that’s a totally lost opportunity, and a horrible approach to an arpg. It’s actually an approach that’s never even been done before. Like I said, Diablo 2 always had balance changes and shifts in the meta. It’s part of the game to me.
So every time I hear someone talking about a mediocre build being in a good place just because it becomes a better novelty, it irks me. These are just people that want to keep everything exactly the same even though games have never been like that since before wide use of the internet. This includes Diablo 2, which again, received constant meta changes for the first 10 years.
And yes while hammerdin has been good for a long time, bows used to be king. Windforce was the ultimate weapon. Hydras were awesome. These were all s tier builds. Yes there is some overlap with hammerdin which has been nonsense for a while now, but that doesn’t negate the point.
And if just having mere seconds is not a big deal to you, then you should have no problem relinquishing these s tier builds and putting some mid-tier builds in their place. Then I could just say to you the same thing. It’s only a few seconds of difference so who cares?
But you do care. And that’s the point. Same as I care about replacement of S tier.
1 Like
It’s realy all about a good compensation. Nerf hammerdin to A-B tier, and put FotH in it’s place buy buffing it further. Nerf LF Javazon but put Strafezon or Plaguezon in it’s place. Sorceress is tricy tho, because most of it’s builds while not exactly S tier, it’s pretty close. I think when players allready have these lower characters deced out, nerfs can be a thing. Because people who traded and hunted for BiS gear for their hammerdin, will be outraged if you Nerf it whitout proper compensation, and devs would lose more than they would gain.
Here is the truth for me…
I get what TC is saying. But their are still others on here who don’t want S tier builds. For me it’s simple. If I am going to spend a few Jah, Ber, Ohm, Lo, Sur, Zod, Cham and probably a Vex. I am with the base that’s hard to get. I am going to expect Superman Godly Tier.
It’s simple because those runes will take awhile to get along with the base and in some cases we might not even see one drop.
The 100% sure meta change is a FoH paladin.
Others are just minor ones:
- Throwbarb is actually playable in playthrough.
- Fire builds can be fine having Stony Tombs to farm up.
- Melee lightzon with Infinity.
Even FoH is just another paladin build. So paladin + sorc items will be sought after early Ladder like always. Imagine a barb, druid, assassin being the meta, totally different items would have bigger values in trading early Ladder. That would be even a trading meta shake.
But since Teleport exists on sorceress, I doubt there can ever be any other meta than sorceress. It is as it is.
4 Likes
The only NERF that is needed is to give teleport cooldown and watch the meta burn.
2 Likes
I see numerous threads calling for no nerfs in the PTR. I think that kind of thinking is one-sided and not healthy from a design standpoint. There is both nerfing and buffing, both of which are equally important and are essential elements for relative balance.
In certain instances, nerfing is the best course of action for bringing overpowered skills down a notch, the two that come to mind is Blessed Hammers and Blizzard. I would personally support a nerf to these skills.
1 Like
All they manage to do with this patch was push more sorc, pally and zon builds when they’re the classes that have s tier builds already. All the other classes have new builds that are kinda playable but nowhere near the levels of infinity javazon, foh pally, and Blizz orber. Where’s the balance, all they’ve done was push classes that we’re doing well already even more. Druids, Necros, barbs and sins got at most some b tier builds out of this patch.
Sad thing bout the necro is, they manage to break it in pvp by bumping the bone spirit damage while it absolute makes no difference in pvm. It’s like they missed 1 bird with 2 stones on this one.
Which changes exactly nothing. Now everyone has a slow teleport. Wooooooooooo… how does that burn the meta? This is in the same categories of ideas as removing teleport from enigma.
I’m not really a fan of adding a cool down to teleport, but what he suggested is true. It would raise up all viable builds that do not have teleport to starter status. I would rather just give these other builds earlier access to teleport (charges on a staff is too expensive to compete).
Teleport is such a necessary skill to farming the game, that other builds should be allocated something that raises them up such a status. Where you would have to choose between the benefits of teleport versus the benefits of this other dynamic. Perhaps add something to other builds where they can proc abilities to overcome immunities or something of that nature. So you can choose to use sorcery to farm but you are going to have to deal with cold immune whereas other classes while they have to walk can steamroll everything depending on if you raise your proc rate to a sufficient enough level through items or what have you.
I think there’s a lot of brainstorming that can be done and a lot of innovation to potentially revolutionize the game even further.
It COULD change the meta. But teleport change alone probably not.
Ladder is about speeding up your way to 99. There are two things to consider:
- movement speed - teleport wins here by such a lead. Leap attack, Burst of speed, Dragon flight, Charge are good tools, but they take time, Teleport is instant. Fully Frenzy-running build can compete with teleport on clear pathway. Useless build tho.
- kill speed - hammers, blizzard, javas, CE win here.
There won’t be any change for 2.4 so we get the same chars early.
But I would like to see next Ladder for devs to be experimental and try to nerf teleport, let it be for 4 months and then can revert it back if it would anger most players or whatever.
1 Like
Teleport is one of the most dominant skills in the game. It would be cool if the developers introduced a new unique amulet, The Traveler’s Pendant. This would offer an alternative to Engima, not replace it…
The Traveler’s Pendant
- Unique Amulet
- +1 To Teleport
- 20% Faster Run/Walk
- 50% Magic Find
- Rarity of item equivalent to SOJ
2 Likes
Hydra might be almost as fast as blizzard at mephisto kill but the clear speed is no way near. Hydra is single target and have too many synergies to be really good if u want to hybrid spec.
2 Likes