Glad for changes, but balancing can happen too

If you can’t understand how 600 and 5000 both are lower than 15 000, you have the problem.

You don’t have to touch skill progression for skill levels 1-20.
If the buff comes from synergies.
Nothing stops them from giving better synergies from a level 30 skill.
Thus low level duels, for instance, is untouched and still as boring as ever with only a handful viable builds, because changes don’t start before level 30.
And synergies can be top-heavy.
If synergy level 16-20 adds better bonuses than level 1-15, you don’t get the buff before level 45-50 at the earliest.
You can only have 15 points in a level 30 skill at level 44.

Then, split the synergies between two skills. One adds raw damage, one adds percent increase. Both top heavy.
Now you need a 52 point investment to start getting the buffed skill bonuses:
20 into the skill itself, 16 into each synergy before each of them start scaling better.

…math isn’t hard, no matter how hard you try to make it.

A skill can also have a skewed normal skill progression, with higher returns past skill level 20, and thus be made almost useless for normal untwinked play, and become only marginally useful, but still worse than other skills, when you get +20 to all skills with heavily twinkled endgame gear that taps into the higher skill progression at levels 37-40.
…you can even make the final push skill level 47-53-54 (paladin, +3 skill tree magic shield or +4 HoZ) / 53 (sorceress with ormus robes) / 55 (necromancer with +3/+3 shrunken head), requiring pretty damn niche gear, like a +3 skill tree + 3 actual skill caster weapon, +3 skill tree circlet, +3 skill tree amulet, two stone of Jordan, arachnid mesh, Spirit shield, shrunken head or magic paladin shield, +2 skill armor or Ormus Robes +3, 9 skill charms and torch + anni.

I don’t understand the need for bad skills that can never be useful, nor the defense for said skills being useless.
They’re a part of the game. There is no reason to have them in the useless tier, when they can remain mostly unused in a slightly higher tier.

A skill that is bad no matter how much you invest into it is still not competing with the best skills if you improve it somewhat.

Fire Bolt exists. It is never better than fireball.

It can be made to be less horrible, without making the game worse.
In fact, the game becomes better the more non-useless skills there’s in it.
Because there’s degrees, tiers.

Utterly useless: Ice Bolt, Psychic Hammer, Inferno
Useless: Bash, Stun, Arctic Blast
Horrible: Feral Rage, Fissure, Glacial Spike
Bad: Raise Skeletal Mage
Mediocre: Hydra, Concentrate
Fair: Multishot, Bone Spear, Ice Blast
Decent: Strafe, Whirlwind
Good: Fireball, Corpse Explosion, Poison Nova
Great: Blizzard, Zeal, Smite, Fanaticism, Lightning Fury
Godly: Hammers

Moving a skill from Utterly Useless to mediocre literally doesn’t force any if you lot to change your lifestyles or pay more taxes.
If the change comes from improved scaling, low-level duels don’t become more versatile either.
The only difference, with conservative buffs, is that a dedicated player can use the skill without losing interest in the game and burning out.

Say, if Ice Bolt gets a synergy overhaul: Synergies are the level 24 cold armor and Frozen Orb, only, and one adds base damage and the other percent damage increase, and odds of penetrating after 10 points of synergies.
They can improve it from Utterly Useless to any tier.
Bad, fair, mediocre.
The only difference is that it comes from useless, to a potential challenging build that still can’t hope to compete with blizzard or frozen orb, or ice blast, but CAN be played, without causing excessive frustration.
Moving all skills up to mediocre would not change anything for the established higher tier skills.


And so many people proclaim their love for useless skills, for whatever reason, the devs should consider adding a Gimp checkbox that let you lot play a character where ALL the skills are bad.

 [_] Ladder
 [_] Hardcore
 [_] Gimp

…in Gimp mode, you play on the normal realm with an otherwise normal character, but all the skills all scale horribly, and fit squarly in the Horrible tier. The neat thing is, if the worst skills are buffed – they only have to cut damage back by 90% to make all skills horrible.
Like, Blessed Hammer in Gimp Mode reaches a peak of 1000 damage at max level with godly gear.
Then there’s no reason to complain: People who want to play gimped characters can.
You can play a character where Ice Bolt is useless, and where you ALSO can play with a useless Blizzard and Fireball.
As many useless skills as you could possibly ever want.

Win / win.

If it’s overbuffed, that’s a separate issue on its own entirely.

Why would it still impact you? You stated you are not interested in playing it. Just because it’s strong, you feel like you are forced to play something you dont wanna play? Doesn’t make sense.

Lmao balance in a non competitive game. That’s a good one.

Level 30 duels are some of the most popular. Your “solution” isn’t one.

This isn’t true. It is better than fireball in some PvP.

An entire community has been built around Bash vs Bash duels for over a decade…think again.

Again, LLD. Your idea to spread synergies is just not enough to make toying with lld worth it.

Again, very difficult to change, as an entire community, and hundred-member+ clan has been built around this, Zeal, and fury only duels. A very active community that will scream bloody murder if their ConcBarb balance is touched.

We will just agree to disagree. My side will win though. Save this post and @ me once they overhaul a 20 year old game’s core spell system. I’ll apologize and concede when they announce it.

Is D2 down to this few of players where 100+ is a lot? You do realize that these meme, niche things exist solely because the game is 20 years old right? People have played the meta to death and resort to memes to keep themselves interested in their favorite game. Yes, I’m aware these things existed back in ~2002-2006. To try and argue they were anything more than a niche is dishonest.

See the gimp checkbox alternative.

[_] Ladder
 [_] Hardcore
 [_] Gimp

That way, all skills can suck / not have decent progression equally for Gimp mode characters.
Imagine the communities even more bad skills could create…!

Saying that players intentionally gimp themselves and only fight with that skill against other people ALSO only using that skill isn’t as good of an argument to call it useful as you think… Goldeneye 64 had a slappers only mode, did that make slappers a viable weapon in any other mode?

Disclosure: I never PVP, and while I would like to see some skill balance I can take it or leave it tbh

Nearly every PvP is niche in D2, that’s what makes it special. You are correct about that.

SvS, BvB, Lld, are popular because they’re niche social subgroups. It’s exactly because of this that D2, even after 20 years, has the best PvP community in all Arpgs.

Those subgroups put together are the massive PvP community d2 has, let’s not wreck it because some noobs struggled to get through nightmare with firestorm.

It’s a good argument for slappers only to be left in the game if there was a 007 remaster.

I think you’ve proven my point well, thank you.

I’m here for buffing underpowered+underused skills. I’d like more builds to be effective in hell. Hopefully they introduce changes later on or form a separate realm.

Be careful what you wish for…because Purist meltdown in 3…2…1…

…inb4

“yOu OnLy WaNt ThE gAmE tO bE eAsY.”

and…

“Kids these days! Back in my day, we played our inferno sorceresses to early nightmare before we deleted her and made a new character, and we didn’t complain! Then when we invested a skillpoint wrong at level 75, we made a new character. Then when we reached 80 and found out that the skill wasn’t that fun to use at max levels and max synergies, we deleted the character and made another – until we had our hammerdin, the hard way, and we deserved it! Now the younger generation just want every build to instantly kill enemies…! Want improve the skills even we didn’t touch somewhat? Want the skills used by the characters we deleted to not be skills that make people delete characters? SURE. Just make every skill 100 000 000 damage, because there’s absolutely not one number in between 1 000 and 100 000 000 for any damage type that does not one hit kill every monster in the game or is lower than the damage output of similar and better skills that still isn’t as high as the better skills!”

The mental grieving stages of a Purist.

Diagnosis: Strong resistance and tantrum against any proposed changes.

Symptoms: Condescending “go play D4” and the “Remastered” word magnified.

And then if you keep prodding them, they will admit “I don’t want you to ruin my childhood nostalgia”

Treatment: If you counter argue that you simply want to improve the game via changes, they will finally dish out the “I don’t trust Blizzard to make a good game anymore”

A rather condescending post, no?
When a product is marketed a particular way, people expect what was offered.
Maybe you shouldn’t prod, repeatedly.
It doesn’t seem like you guys are gaining much ground.
Name some successful remakes from that era.

Oh the irony. What IS condescending is telling every person with changes or ideas to “go play D4,” a game that isn’t even out yet.

Yes, that also could be condescending to some.

Here, I’ll budge a lil.
I was a huge fan of FF7 back in the gap.
When I saw there was going to be a remake, I was apprehensive.
It is nothing like the original, but it has grown on me all the same.
A success I would say.
But it wasn’t marketed towards the elderscrawls, nor was it hidden that it would be reimagined and expanded upon.

FF7 remake has been handled well. There were limitations when FF7 was made at the time in terms of content and mechanics. But it was updated with the remake.

Vanilla D2, outside of graphics, certainly had its flaws and limitations, such as game search / creation, no in-game trading platform, lack of end-game content outside of bosses. But these people are so adamant about staying true to their nostalgia that they have lost sight of improving the game and making it better than what it was. Hell, I’ve played this game over 16 years and I have fond memories of it as well. But it’s time to modernize the game and make some necessary changes.

D3 spawns complaining because skills that you get at lvl 9 are weaker than the ones you get at lvl 30.

Funny thread.