A Suggestion For Two-Handed Whirlwind

With the new attack speed changes to Whirlwind, two handed weapons have fallen off quite a bit. Ignoring the current impact of slowing effects, two-handers (2H) sit roughly in the middle of where they use to sit before. You needed 59 effective IAS (EIAS) to hit 4 frames per attack (FPA) on a 2H weapon. EIAS = WIAS - WSM here. This means only a very limited amount of weapons could reach 4 FPA with 2H. This included IK Maul with two Shaels, BOTD in a 0 WSM base or faster, or anything of similar nature where you can stack 50-90 WIAS to make the weapon hit 4 FPA. Otherwise, it was highly probable you sat at 6 FPA.

Now, based on ubeogesh’s findings, you need 51 EIAS (relative to 0 WSM base) to hit 5 FPA (the new maximum for 2H). EIAS = SIAS + DM(IAS) - WSM here. It requires a little more investment to reach than 4 FPA did beforehand, but the options you have available to you to hit it are much larger now. It only takes Frenzy level 16 (plus stacking it up) to obtain 40 EIAS. If you have a -10 WSM base, you only need 1 more EIAS. If you have a Fanaticism mercenary, that’s 33 EIAS on levels 14 and 15.

Additionally, this opens up all weapons that couldn’t have WIAS (or very little of it) to be useful for Whirlwind. There are now plenty of viable options, but people like their meta builds.

With that being said, 2H draws the short stick since there’s less for them to work with, being 2H. A 2H WW Barb can’t really Frenzy to generate some easy EIAS. They could use a Fanaticism mercenary… but we all know how not great they are. This leaves mostly gear options. In a 0 WSM base, 51 EIAS is 89 IAS. 89 IAS is easy to generate for those big WIAS options that were originally used (IK Maul at 80, BOTD at 60, etc). But now they must also take 20 IAS Gloves or Amulet or even more to hit 5 FPA. An IK Maul would need 61 EIAS, which is 125 IAS. You get 80 from the weapon with double Shael and 25 from the gloves. You need 20 more, so this requires 2 IAS jewels placed in the helm or chest. Socket choices are pretty restrictive and still 1 FPA less than before.

Personally, I would be okay with this, 1 frame is a pretty big change but 2H are naturally slower. However, 2H currently suck and there are no mirror match situations for Whirlwind where a 2H can meet equal damage to two 1H weapons, especially now since the first hit check (4th frame) now swings with both weapons instead of just one (note: the second hit check (8th frame) doesn’t exist anymore). On top of this, Whirlwind is already slightly inferior to most melee options, as the damage scaling is less compared to most builds (even if it hits much faster), and Whirlwind is extremely restrictive, not allowing you to heal during the animation amongst plenty of other things.

Some proposals to fix 2H WW (take one, several, or all that seem good or relevant):

  • Since slowing SIAS now impacts Whirlwind, it’s impossible for a 2H to overstack and keep himself at 5 FPA. Make slowing effects not as prominent in Whirlwind, whether that be: Whirlwind uses the same attack speed no matter what calculated at the start of the animation (if you start slow you stay slow though), don’t allow slowing effects to apply mid-WW (WW state has 100% curse length reduction, not sure how you’d handle Holy Freeze), or increase the breakpoints of WW enough so that they’re easier to reach and can be overstacked upon much more easily.
  • Buff 2H damage, whether that be: just the weapons across the board (but that’s a whole issue in of itself), some skill-specific 2H buff (new logic would have to be introduced for this I believe), or just buff WW damage in general (though dual wield just stays further ahead).
  • Make Whirlwind interact with all elements of the game if you’re going to let slowing effects apply to them, such as: CTCs, being able to drink potions mid-WW, etc.
  • Change Whirlwind mechanics to work similarly to console, where, instead of Whirlwind being a “spin to clicked destination”, make it “spin toward cursor for as long as skill is channeled”, similar to how Inferno channels. That way they’re not locked in a Whirlwind and can end the animation when they please (incase they get debuffed mid-WW and have to spend the next 17 years waiting for it to end). There’s probably other ways you could design this too if this is too much of a change.
3 Likes

Instead of further “fixing” it we should just revert it to how it was.

2 Likes

I disagree, off-weapon ias not working wasn’t ideal and i’d like to see more viability for different weapons with whirlwind; it’s better to buff whirlwind further instead of wanting to revert every change that’s ever happened to Diablo II Res

Being able to be slowed now does suck, at the very least they should let cast on hit work with whirlwind - and 2 handed weapons in general are underpowered - they either need a DPS buff or spawn with the prefix/suffix mods of 2 items instead of 1

Just reversing every change is lazy, they instead should be encouraged to buff the right things so we can see whirlwind barbs using lots of different weapons

2 Likes

50% of the barbarian die because half of is weapon mastery die
spear and pole mastery are dead and all other mastery using two hand also die

let only FAST 1 hand weapon option

2 hand ww is suppose to be in 5 frame now this mean a massive dps lost just there ,and all ias asking now just make no sense and kill 2 hand is about a total around 40% dps nerf too something already weak compare other build

the fix is really easy put back the ww old ias table and just add ias from the gear this will make the barb very fun for everyone , and still other class will pull out more dps compare the barb

while this definitely would make it fun… it would also be kind of backwards logic. every single weapon would hit 4 fpa with very little investment. i think whirlwind would be more interesting buffed in other ways.

They just made it so off weapon IAS affects WW. And look what a disaster it is! Now you need to have crazy IAS not only on your weapon but on all your gear.

My solution to WW would be to add socketing recipes that would allow you to socket a bunch of Shaels in your weapon. It’s a small change that would fix WW without breaking game mechanics.

D2R has made some good changes. But also some bad changes. And the bad ones we should definitely revert.

A big part of this comes down to 2 handed weapons being weak in general - if they fix that issue whirlwind and all 2 handed weapon builds will be buffed

2 handed weapons and heavy armor both need to be looked are properly in a future patch

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it’s a bad change for 2h currently. but thats also because 2h sucks, not only because whirlwind sucks. bit of both. you could go backwards and stick with the same meta where you can ONLY choose weapons with lots of WIAS, or go forward and make all weapons good, and just add more buffs to make 2h ww good…

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yes mean the Grief ias will be over kill and will not be no1 anymore and this will open the door too other runeword for ww maybe dead :slight_smile: this will be so much fun and in the end of the day barbarain will make less dps compare other class

player will have choice and option for build what diablo 2 suppose to be about

right now is only Grief with a stupid phase blade

grief isn’t op because of its ias. you make every weapon hit 4 fpa and still grief will be bis. 2h will still suck, because 2h sucks regardless of how ww works.

yes, barbs are kinda of meh in the dps department, but overbuffing attack speed for whirlwind isnt a good way to fix that. buffing barbarian damage as a whole is how you fix that.

Grief is op for everything for is weapon selection -30 base also have good ias 30 to 40 and 400 base damage , mean you select the good weapon -30 with 40 ias = 70 ias right there and easy ias table for ww SO MY FIX DONT don’t benefit too GRIEF but other build

2 hand will not suck anymore and will be a lot more enjoyable with dead or Breath of the Dying 4frame ww warpike or Tmaul yes 2 hand will NOT BE THE BEST BUT A LOT MORE FUN :slight_smile:

also you will have some barbarian dual wield DEAD this will add so much fun option

compare just to play a dam boring Grief phase blade

Does anyone actually care about 2h ww?

i guess is hard to care about something is already underwhelming in term of dps in a generation of player that only care about min maxing and now maybe more because two hand is dead , i guess the dev just have too delete 2 hand weapon from the game

Come on be an optimist! Classic 2 hand weapons are bound to get some love! I could see the team allowing any 2h weapons use with one on a barb! Now this would be interesting! Imagine EBOTD executioners axe + Beast Feral Axe or somthing similar. Or EBOTD TM + Beast Ogre Maul!

i think thats a little too optimistic. the legacy ingame model has sprites for one handing two handed swords (theyre huge compared to regular swords), but nothing exists for one handing two large axes. theyd have to share models with one handed axes. i think the players would generally be ok with this cuz nearly everyone uses resurrected graphics (which could definitely have new models with ease), but i dont think blizzard would go for it. i think two handed weapons just need more to them. theyre identical to one handed weapons but do slightly more dmg and slower. give them some identity. make only two handed weapons deal splash dmg, or give two handed weapons their own automod (like maces have 50% damage to undead) thats like crushing blow or deadly strike or enhanced damage or something… or just really buff up 2h damage.

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Theres more to it than apperance for instance a Thundermaul has same range as a Phaseblade. An Executioners Axe has double the range of a Phaseblade, 1 more than a Berserker Axe. Two handed swords are misleading because they have the same range as a Berserker axe and have worse speed. Lets support the dev team with ideas to freshen up what we already have.

Come to think of it, Different bases could have different auto mods like scimitars could have innate opened wounds or deadly strike and axes could have crushing blow etc.

Lazy fix :

Ww or barbs skill in general deal 20% (placeholder%) increased damage While holding a wep with both hands .

That would make sense imo … slower fpa BUT hitting like a truck .

Dw 1 handers can keep their 4fpa.

just super buff the two handed masteries

No. There are 2 handed axes and swords (used as 2h) . Those chosing to use a single Big 2handed wep shouldn’t be forced to go spear or poleaxe.

Thats why it can ve done yo skill damage While holding a wep with both hands… regsrdless of the wep tipe .

ohh you’re right. for some reason i was thinking each weapon type had its own for one hand and two hand, but that would be way too many masteries lmao