2.9 Class Set overhaul

General Discussion
21

FRW does spawn on small charms but it’s a suffix and a meager 3%. Large Charms spawn with 5% while Grand Charms is 7%. Bumping their impact to 5%, 8% and 12%(mirroring Faster Hit Recovery) would be something I’d be in favor of. The thing is though that Faster Run/Walk has diminishing returns and you won’t notice that much of a difference between 100% FRW and 80% FRW. The idea of a unique charm with FRW is somewhat interesting I’ll admit.

I’m not suggesting any changes to Trang-Oul but merely fixing the FCR bug associated with the set(if it hasn’t been addressed already) and explicitly mentioning in Complete Set perks that you’ll walk as fast as you run. My proposal for Tal Rasha was +10% FCR on Helm and 40% Poison Resistance on Armor. Hardly much of a change other than making it 40 All Resistance on the Armor and making it slightly easier to hit 105 FCR for Fire/Cold Sorcs and 117 FCR for Lightning Sorcs.

Two of the class sets in Aldur and M’avina need across the board re-work to be viable. Aldur presently doesn’t excel at anything(mediocre SS and has no FCR for Elemental) while M’avina has no guaranteed Pierce and forces you into Freezing Arrow while not giving any benefit to Physical or Fire Bowzons despite the potential for doing so(PaChu and I demonstrated as much).

If these proposals were to go through, I think Aldur would be a solid B SS setup(low to mid-A if Ethereal is added to Set items) and a solid B for Elemental(tailored more for Fire Elemental Druids than Wind Druids). M’avina would easily be a solid B, potentially low A for Physical, Fire or Cold Bowzon setups.

22

I would personally like to see more RNG numbers in sets so that they have a chance to be worse than they currently are BUT can also be BETTER than they currently are.

Static sets are limiting.

I’m not proposing this change but an example would be tal Tasha’s amulet can be ;
1-3 skills
20-40% light resistance
30-75 to life
30-75 to mana

I’ve always liked to idea of items having less static features and more RNG

1 Like
23

Thing is, the less RNG the better. The moment you add RNG, the less desirable(and hence trade value) that item becomes, especially if the item is pure fecal matter like Natalya Chest Armor(+150 Defense, 1 socket). You going to trade for Natalya Armor when it has 1 Socket? Heck no. You’ll expect, at minimum, 3 Sockets and at least +175, if not +200 Defense roll so when you’re MF and you find Natalya Armor, what will you do if you find Natalya Armor with 1 or 2 Sockets? You’ll sell that to Charsi in a nanosecond.

Furthermore, the maximum +Sorceress Skills can be on Tal Amulet is +2. +3 is viable if it only affects one skill tree. Yet my point about Natalya Chest Armor would apply here to Tal Amulet unless people don’t give a damn about +Skills and the other attributes. Just saying, the less RNG there is, the better. People hate Diablo 3 because of how much RNG exists in the game.

24

Sorc fanatics will crawl out again saying that the set needs a huge buff. +5 skills at least and add a conviction level 15 aura. Just in case.

25

I don’t like “set items” as an item rarity in any ARPG. It ruins the individual item slots if its too meta. I would rather innovation with “set items” in mind. Instead of set items being an actual item rarity, it could be something we apply to an item or insert into an item so it doesnt ruin an item slots item hunt.

26

Diablo 2 Class sets are certainly not meta because they’re not as strong as Unique/Runeword setups. In the grand scheme of things, Sets are basically an afterthought because they lack one key aspect: Teleport. If the build doesn’t call for Enigma, there are other options that are better.

For Sorceress, they do use Tal Rasha but not for end-game but because its excellent at granting gobs of Magic Find used to find the items they’ll need for end-game. When compared to end-game setups, Tal Rasha simply can not compete with the raw power those setups provide. Is it viable for Hell Difficulty? Yes it is but if you want 14k+ Blizzard, 25k Fireball or 40-50k Lightning, Tal Rasha is not going to give you that.

@Fredi: Technically Tal Rasha gives +6 Skills… but level 15 Conviction Aura… on Tal Rasha? Now that’s something I’ve not heard in a long time… if ever now that I think about it. Why stop at level 15 and put it at level 25 and make Paladins/Infinity obsolete while we’re at it. rolls eyes

Yeah… that’s not going to happen in this thread. People are welcome to start their own topic clamoring for it but its not going to happen here. Set’s don’t need to become the dominant power in the Diablo Universe.

27

Nobody wants wearing full set items as strong as the BIS items. But they (all 8 elite sets) should be viable in hell. Right now only tal rasha and trang oul are good in hell, other 6 need an improvement by wearing full sets. I am not a fan to buff the bonus of wearing 2 pieces or 3 pieces.
The other 6 are weaker than the budget gear which is sad (for me). Vipermagi, Lore, Harlequin Crest, Spirit (sword) are “budget/starter” items.

M’avina gets ~130 dmg buff (and yet the higher your level the stronger is windforce)
Aldur gets 35% FCR
I dont know much about paladin, barbar and assassins.

28

I think everyone agrees that making Class Sets viable is the end-goal here and honestly all 7 Sets(8 if you include BK), are viable in the sense that you can kill stuff with them right now. The problem is that the gap between them is severe and they are outclassed by runeword/uniques, including budget gear for some of them. Given that circumstance, people simply don’t even bother collecting the sets or if they do, its for one or two pieces, three at most(notably Trang-Oul, Tal Rasha or Immortal King).

Two sets in Tal Rasha and Trang-Oul simply do not need much, if anything, although I did suggest a modest bump for Tal Rasha in +10 FCR and shoring up Poison Resistance that is the bane of ES Sorceress’ everywhere.

Griswold does need FCR(makes it viable for FoH/Bolt/Hammers, especially after 2.4 changes) but the rest of my defensive buffs can be scrapped if push came to shove(Ex: Gris Helm buffs built upon its existing Cold Absorb attribute). IK got CBF on IK Boots, defense bump on IK Armor, bump to Physical Resistance on IK Belt and IK Maul to be Ethereal capable should Ethereal ever be added to Sets. Then Natalya got MA/Trap trees addressed while shoring up her Defenses on Chest Armor and Boots.

That leaves Aldur and M’avina or the two class sets that badly need attention. Gave Aldur 200 ED and 30 FCR on Weapon(it technically has 200% ED in +Damage form but lacks FCR outright) while Armor got a buff to +SS/Ele skills and Poison Resistance. Helm got +Summons, a tree the set completely ignored.

Given those changes the set would actually be viable as a SS set(with a Set Weapon Cube upgrade) or as a Fire Elemental set with Rainbow Facets(got enough sockets for six of them plus Phoenix Shield). Reaper Wolf still beats the snot out of it but it’s no longer hot garbage as it is right now.

As for M’avina, her set was effectively Frost Maiden and nothing else. Even so, the poorly thought out Ice runeword with Nightwing is better than the set as presently constructed. If you were a Physical Bowzon or a Fire Maiden, you wouldn’t even consider touching this set so the buffs to M’avina were with that in mind: To make it a true Bowzon set.

Helm got Pierce so any Bowzon using the set could get 100% Pierce. Armor got significant Defensive buffs, including Physical Resistance. Gloves buffed the snot out of Frost Maidens while applying Knockback(notable addition that makes it appealing to all Bowzon types). Belt mirrored the Gloves but with Fire Maidens in mind and finally the Bow got a nice fat %ED buff to make it more competitive on the Physical Bowzon end.

The set is still outclassed for Physical Bowzons but its not so egregious that Physical Bowzons would outright ignore it as presently proposed since it’d deal Fire, Cold and Magic Damage for PI’s while granting KB and 100% Pierce. Yet if you were a Frost Maiden or especially a Fire Maiden, this set would be extremely appealing given that you can plop Rainbow Facets in Bow, Helm and Armor for an additional 15/15, hitting 35% and -35% respectively. Physical Bowzons would have three sockets for 40/15’s as well but again it’s not as strong as Windforce or Faith.

BK Set I haven’t even put 5 seconds of thought into. If anyone wants to suggest an overhaul idea on that, I’d recommend making a topic for it seeing as this is specifically on the Class sets.

29

Ugh…

Set items as a rarity IS NOT a good thing for the ARPG genre.

To some extent, singular items in an item slot as best in slot is also not a good thing.

You must remember where the idea for an ARPG came from. Back in the 80’s/90’s we had arcade game “beat’em ups” such as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Final Fight, etc… These games were ACTION games.

We also had RPGs such as Final Fantasy, Dungeons and Dragons (Pen and paper), etc…

ARPG is literally taking the “beat em up” genre and when you kill a monster, instead of giving you nothing, it is now a slot machine (Item system/Drop system).

Class sets have numerous issues:

1.) If they are “viable”, then the item hunt becomes a pre-determined character. Might as well go back to the “beat em up” genre at this point. It’s too simple.

2.) If they are “not viable”, then simply no one will use them. Which in my opinion is a good thing because now we can hunt for rare items, uniques, and runewords. (More variety)

3.) Class sets to me is just an idea/concept of collecting “something” which adds up to bonuses for your class or globally. INNOVATION is what “sets” need in the ARPG genre. If you want the exact same thing all the time, you will get the exact same thing all the time. The ARPG genre as a whole has so much room for innovation its insane. The idea of clicking a skeleton and an item drops was only the beginning. We need to go deeper down the rabbit hole and stretch our minds to the limit to come up with better ideas. This includes really looking into current ideas/systems and asking, “Is it really a good idea? If not, why? And what can we do to make it better?”

Ending Comment (Off topic):

I still think the “corruption” system idea/concept from Path of Exile, Project Diablo 2, and Path of Diablo brings longer life to an item system like this. I feel the current item system was good for it’s time but is becoming outdated. The idea of going out and finding one or two item choices per item slot as best in slot is too basic. Like I said, the genre was created with the idea of RPG and “Beat em ups” mixed together. The more addictive the slot machine of loot is, the more the player will want to continue playing. Which is why Diablo 2 is so lucrative, there are so many types of “rare” finds such as high runes, TC87’s, gg white bases for runewords… Running mlvl 85 areas is like a spin of the slot machine.

The problem in my eyes is that once you find the item for the item slot, you are done with that item slot. I feel like to really stick to the ARPG genre and not “become” a “beat em up” after X hours of play, the item system needs to be expanded upon conceptually. One idea which is proven to be entertaining is the corruption system. (Path of Diablo /Project Diablo 2) In PD2 for example, you start finding “Worldstone Shards” early in the game. You can start “slamming” low level items as you are leveling up. It makes the leveling process a lot more fun because you feel like you can get some wild gear, whereas the current vanilla game, you know what you are getting and it’s very simple (And in most cases, the loot at early levels sucks which is a different topic. PD2 actually looked at every low level unique and tweaked there stats to have some form of purpose, at least for leveling purposes.). The corruptions also prolong the end game item hunt by saying, “Hey, you found a shako! Do you want to slam it? Do you want to save this shako until you find a 2nd shako then slam both? Do you wear one clean shako and then slam the 2nd shako and beyond?” It adds strategy, player choice, and item depth. It creates a better trading system because mediocre rares/uniques can be slammed to be decent and worth selling. It does soooo much good for the game.

And lastly, with a corruption system, we would need some form of “end game map” system which is more difficult then overworld farming but also offers mlvl85+ areas for XPing, higher item quantity based on how difficult the map is (risk vs reward), and possibly some handcrafted unique items specific to end game mapping but nothing too crazy because we don’t want D2 to become power creep intensive. If maps had a few unique drops, they would be horizontal progression, meaning, similar in power to what we can get from hell.

My 2cents

1 Like
30

The 6 should be improved to “budget gear” level. That’s it and you still have a lot viable/good items for hell difficulty.

I have about fifteen lvl70 nonladder chars. They all are wearing pretty much the same. Vipermagi, Lore or Shako, double spirit, aldur or natalya boots, +3 skills amulets, magefist or trangoul gloves. Most of the mentioned items are budget items, and they are fine in hell.
Now I want the six class sets as good as budget items. Trangoul and tal rasha are already good.

My example shows that we already play like they are pre-determined characters. Even ladder lobby shows the same pattern right now “N vipermagi” or “N wmonarch” etc

I don’t feel that is the case with all elite set classes. You need find all items, then you will wear all items. The bonus of 2 or 3 pieces are bad, that’s where you use other items until you have all set items.
The suggested ideas like additionall 35% fcr for aldur full set and ~100dmg buff for m’avina full set will improve them to budget level.
Once you find Vipermagi, that slot is pretty much done (until you have endgame items like enigma or fortitude etc).

2 Likes
31

Correct, which is why a corruption system would add the “depth” we need to make more options to each item slot without feeling like a pre-determined item setup AKA “Beat em up” genre.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/898182967413833728/973838440246439996/World_first.png

All my characters are practically wearing the same starter gear. The leveling process was also mind numbingly boring because the items were all the same, lackluster, and not dynamic enough.

The corruption system takes the idea of a “rare item (Yellow rarity)” and adds it to everything. Rares are dynamic because you never know what you are getting. So adding corruptions, you might find a junk unique you normal wouldn’t use, but then you slam it during the leveling process and you get lucky and maybe you get max sockets or flat damage reduction.

It adds depth, something we need right now. The item system feels like a linear path sometimes (Even though the items I want are rare). Blah blah Enigma, blah blah shako, blah blah stormshield… Cmon… We can do better than that.

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32

Unless you buff up sets to an ungoldy power they are not really gonna be used. I would rather use Enigma, Hoto, Cta, spirit or a whole list of runewords over kinda meh sets. The only way sets even get used is in slots that have no runewords, things like trangs gloves on casters and what not. It is what it is and It’s probably never going to change.

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33

Aldur is really bad I agree, mainly because of the weapon.

M’avina is not that bad actually. You just have to play an Elemental bowazon with it yet these builds are not very powerful.

Immortal King is ok. You can clear P1 Hell with it it’s decent.

Griswold is bad just like Aldur mainly because of the weapon. With a “polish” like OP said, it could do the job. But you need to remove the weapon for another item.

Trang-Oul is fun but bad. Mainly because of the FCR.

Tal Rasha is insanely good and doesn’t need changes

Natalya you can make use of it early for few builds. But the cloaked display sucks.

The main topic here is :

We have to balance the sets with each others. So the question is :

Should Blizzard make all set as OP as Tal Rasha?

Or should Blizzard hard nerf Tal Rasha so it becomes the same as the other sets?

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34

Unless you buff up sets to an ungoldy power they are not really gonna be used. I would rather use Enigma, Hoto, Cta, spirit or a whole list of runewords over kinda meh sets. The only way sets even get used is in slots that have no runewords, things like trangs gloves on casters and what not. It is what it is and It’s probably never going to change.

Goal here isn’t to make them OP but to make them an option for players to utilize. As they presently are, Tal Rasha, Trang-Oul, Natalya and Immortal King are frankly the only sets that would be relatively viable for an actual end-game build(even if they’re outclassed by Unique/Runewords).

I didn’t touch Trang-Oul, only to clarify the Run/Walk perk and fix the Vampire FCR bug that the set suffers from. Despite not having Teleport, the set is a really good Poison Necro/Revive set. Tal Rasha didn’t really get much either save for 10% FCR and 40 Poison Resistance(makes the set stronger for Energy Shield and hitting 105/117 breakpoints). Immortal King didn’t get many changes other than Maul getting Self-Repair mod(for inevitable Ethereal addition to Sets), Armor getting a buff to Defense, Boots getting CBF and Belt getting 5% extra Physical Resistance. IK probably doesn’t need it but the proposal is there. IK would benefit from a buff to Whirlwind but that’s a different subject. Finally Natalya merely needed to have its MA/Trap trees addressed(Set completely overlooks/ignores them) and buffing its Chest Armor so that it doesn’t outright suck(weak link in the set frankly) while giving a modest buff to the Boots.

That leaves Griswold and the two sets I highlighted in Aldur and M’avina. Griswold doesn’t really need much of anything besides FCR on the Weapon. It didn’t matter much pre 2.4 but now with FoH’s cast delay dropping, the set really does need FCR to make it viable from a caster perspective. The rest of the proposed “buffs” are merely fluff/icing or wishlist heh. It makes an excellent FoHdin set(with Lightning Facets), Zealdin(all those sockets for Eth or 40/15 Jewels), Avenger(40/15’s in weapon, Rainbow Facets on Armor) or some Tank build given that Paladins just don’t die…

As for Aldur and M’avina, they definitely need a boost. I listed the changes in the first post but TLDR: Aldur was pathetic at SS and was “average” at best as a Fire Elemental Druid(needs expensive Rainbow Facets to flourish). My proposal easily makes it a viable set for SS(Reaper Toll still beats it) while its Elemental deficiency still remains despite getting FCR on the Weapon. With a bit of investment though, the set could be a solid fixture in a Fire Druid build(even as it is right now).

M’avina is just a Frost Maiden set and a pretty bad one at that(Ice/Nightwing beat it by a mile). Yet if you were a Fire Maiden or Physical Bowzon, M’avina set is not even remotely considered so the changes were meant to remedy that to at least make it an option. Overall I think the current proposal makes it more of a Fire Maiden set than anything given that HoJ and Phoenix do not buff Fire Skills by 20% and with Fire Facets the set can reach -35% Fire Resistance, which HoJ/Flickering Flame hits and Phoenix/Flickering Flame is slightly above that.

35

Just going to add my 2 cents for the M’avina set.

I think a varied enhanced damage roll on the bow will open up avenues for seeking out perfect set pieces for this set (the individual set pieces don’t currently have varying stats that are impactful).

I would make the bow have a varying 188-220% Ed bonus on top of the 100% Ed bonus for the full set.

The practicality of having a conditional Ed bonus on a weapon is something to be tested.

This bonus should be boosted from 10% to 25%. This will make the bow live up to its name a bit more.

These should be removed and be replaced with:

M’avina’s True Sight
-30% enemy lightning resistances (4 Items)

I chose the minus lightning res over javelin skills to benefit some of the javelin skill tree but also boost the damage for the nova proc and any lightning damage charms in the inventory for when you’re using your bow.

The changes are a net 25% resistances reduction from what you’ve asked for, back to how it currently is. The set doesn’t need any more resists on top of what it has now, which is 50% from items and 50% from the full set bonus.

Bowazons don’t need damage reduction, and this set already grants decent defense and +skills which lead into defensive passives.

That said, I can’t think of anything better to replace it with.

This bonus should be moved to a partial set bonus for 4 items. Bowazons or hybridzons that use items on switch (harmony, demon limb, lacerator) won’t be able to benefit from this bonus while in switch mode.

Not sure why knockback is needed. It also feels like it’s going against the individual item’s design. There’s also some bowazons that would prefer not to have this.

Would prefer to see a small increased attack speed bonus here instead, but with the cold skill/resistances buffs already, this might be too powerful for a partial set in terms of competing with Ice, or used in conjunction with Ice + Nightwings.

36

I play full IK whirlwind barb on purpose and it is amazing. I can kill the entire monsters of this game fairly quick. I do Baal Runs and Diablo Runs all by myself. I can do DClone, Keyruns, Tranvincal…everything without any struggle.

Mavinas is a good set for cold bowamas. Not super strong, but decent.
They should buff it though, and Aldurs is just plain aweful. The Assassins one is not good either.

37

The most important peice of Aldur’s would be to move the +350% Damage bonus from being a set bonus to being a weapon bonus for multiple pieces. The weapon damage is trash otherwise.

As it currently stands the 350% is added onto the skills damage multiplier as an additive factor much like Fortitude. It should improve weapon damage so it can scale with the skills.

Also, sets need to roll eth as well. There is no excuse why they currently don’t with the advent of runewords.

A rune alternative to Zod is also highly needed.

38

IK is mediocre for a WW build. The weapon damage is pitiful compared to alternatives and the overall set bonuses leave much lacking. 20% DR for a set that takes every slot minus jewelry leaves you super squishy for hardcore.

The set damage starts decent at p1 and becomes completely lackluster compared to end game gear. +5 all skills and a bunch of elemental damage that doesn’t scale with skills…

Compare it to an eth BB Oath barb with SS for example.

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39

I’ve never been a fan of RNG so I try to limit it as much as possible(its one of my pet peeves on Diablo 3) and I’ve always felt that when it came to Set’s and Uniques their values should be relatively fixed in stone. Bumping M’avina’s Caster 3-piece proc bonus seems well within reason. As for M’avina Glove Knockback, it was more for Strafe Bowzons to keep enemies at bay but I figure 20% IAS in its place ccouldn’t hurt and if they wanted Knockback they can always Nef the Bow.

For M’avina’s True Sight, it’s always had +25 to All Resistance with 4 items. M’avina’s Embrace(Chest Armor) is where I added +25 to All Resistance and I think that is where -20% Lightning Resistance should go(in place of the +25 All Resistance) since I agree that on reflection, +100 All Resistance is perfectly reasonable for a Class Set. I bumped it down to -20%(from -30%) to mirror Gloves/Belt. As for the +Javelin&Spear skills, while I agree it’s effectively a Bowzon set, it is the Amazon Class Set, hence it should not ignore an entire tree of skills.

So with that in mind, what do you think of the following idea in that this Set can be the first to offer TWO options for the Set Weapon? The first option is the current M’avina Caster while the other being a brand new Matriarchal Pike(or Spear… totally flexible on which one to use) called M’avina’s Resolve. If you have either M’avina’s Caster or M’avina’s Resolve equipped with the other Set Items, it will be considered “complete” and thereby moving the +2 Javelin&Spear Skills to the new weapon. As for the 4-piece bonus on M’avina’s Embrace, I was thinking 20% Physical Resistance(move that from Complete Set) and then adding +20% Lightning Damage for Complete Set on Armor.

The Physical Resistance would then be justified for someone going with M’avina’s Resolve since they’ll be up in the thick of things stabbing away and by adding this Spear, it’d allow for Bow/Spear Hybrid builds or allowing the player to pick and choose to go Bowzon or Spearzon with the Class Set.

M’avina’s Resolve(Matriarchal Pike):
Required Strength: 132
Required Dexterity: 149
Required Level: 72
200-250% Enhanced Damage (varies)
40% Increased Attack Speed
8-10% Life Stolen On Hit (varies)
10% Mana Stolen On Hit
Adds 200 - 375 Fire Damage (2 Items)
Adds 110 - 325 Cold Damage, 6 second duration(Normal) (3 Items)
Adds 10 - 400 Lightning Damage (4 Items)
+2 to Javelin and Spear Skills (Complete Set)

As for M’avina Set being too close to Ice + Nightwing, its both right and wrong. In terms of Cold Skill damage, it’s not even close. Ice +Nightwing can hit +50% Cold Skill Damage while M’avina can hit 35%. Where M’avina has the edge is on -Cold Resistance. Ice + Nightwing only hits -25% while M’avina can hit -35%. Now if Ice could proc Lower Resist on striking or if it had -30% Cold Resistance(or both), then M’avina’s edge would be completely negated. Keep in mind Ice also has built in Holy Freeze(+Cold Damage and CC Slow), 7% Life Leech(via Amn rune), Ignore Target Defense(via Jah rune) and 20% Deadly Strike(via Lo Rune). Frankly though, Ice need to be buffed and I normally don’t say that about runewords but in this particular case it does. -30% Cold Resistance and Lower Resist proc would make it an ideal Frost Maiden Bow.

Now if we’re talking Fire Maidens… M’avina Set is arguably the best out there now.

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40

Meh

Tal is the only good set of them all

Mavina could get help from having Blizzard make arrow effects stack

So you would have Mavina bow shoot Magic arrows+your skill

Multiple magic arrows

Guided magic arrows

Explosive magic arrow

Strafe magic arrow

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As for Immortal king, it would be great if Indestructible item and sets were allowed to spawn ethereal

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Trang is boring, it’s better 2 part than whole set

To spice up things I would make it’s Oskill fully synergized

That way you could have a meteor or firewall or fireball necro using lower resist to help

And or… the Set not only grants your fire spells but also does for your skeleton mages

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Natalya, griswold and alder could easily benefit from having unique&set class items able to spawn Automods

So you could have +3 Phoenix strike on nat claws or +3 foh on gris caddy or +3armaghddon on alder helm

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